archetypal deam?

[charles W]

Last night had a dream about friend who was like a brother figure to me, he bored money and then wouldn't repay it. I somehow got his wallet from him and saw that he was loaded, some he got his wallet back and there was a strange drawn out pursuit. At some point this friend turned into my actual older brother, the whole dream was unpleasant, my mother came into the picture and took his wallet and saw that I was telling the truth. Still didn't get the money back, in real life this person used to be a friend and I wonder if I didn't at the time project an archetypal need for a brother, I do have an older brother who is a jealous type and has always bee jealous of my talent. The friend in the dream, who was also a friend in real life, I recently ran into a few months ago, we tried to reconnect but I saw he hadn't changed and was still stuck in being a bit of a jerk.

When I woke I felt that all of my relationships have been archetypal in some way. I have always had a bad relationship with my older sister, I would say the problem is with her, she is cold and has never shown love to me, I felt when I woke that all relationships with women I have had seem to recreate this poor relationship and somewhat fear and distrust I have surrounding my relationship with my sister.

Father figures too, a number of my friends have been older than me, some times 20 years senior, but I have never seen that as a barrier, I tend to get along with older people better than people my own age. Anyways, I felt too this morning, and I have felt this before too, that these friends are always unconscious projections of a need for a loving father figure? My own father was somewhat absent from my life, not supporting in anyway.

I felt this morning that my relationship with my whole family is alienated, dysfunctional, and that I do perhaps search unconsciously for a new family and community into which I am seen and valued at a deep spiritual level.

Shoot did I just answer my own query?

[Michael Hawkins]

Hello Charles,

Thanks for writing in with your dream -- and apologies for having allowed a couple days pass before getting back to you.

The first thing that strikes me in the dream is that, in pairing you with a brother-figure as main dream characters -- in a conflicting relationship -- this puts the dream (and, possibly, the cycles of your life) in the Black Rose stage of the four-part alchemical unfoldment.

Here are the four stages:

1) Black Rose - conflict with same sex -- a cyclical descent on the ego/body level, often accompanied by some sort of physical injury or ailment.

2) White Rose - union with same sex -- men often "forget" these dreams, especially when the union is sexual -- but dreams show union in different ways. Physical healing often accompanies this stage.

3) Yellow Rose - conflict with opposite sex -- soul-descent, taking the overall archetypal cycle to a transpersonal level, where issues unveiled in the first two stages dig down for deeper meaning and application. Deep unconscious material is liable to surface at this time, which is not always pleasant, especially when resisted.

4) Red Rose - union with opposite sex - dreams can show sexual union, but also images like mandalas, golden eagles, etc. -- the stage of true healing and individuation around a particular archetype.

It's hard to know from your dream exactly which archetype we're dealing with. If we use the Zodiac as an archetypal template, Gemini is siblings, and Taurus is often money (although it can show up with other signs like Pisces and Capricorn). Issues of trust are often associated with Pisces (the Mystic archetype), and I'm wondering from your self-interpretation if this isn't the archetype you're dealing with. If so, at the Black Rose level, physical manifestations can show up in the feet, the third-eye area, or with whatever meridian that's associated with Pisces (I don't know which one, unfortunately).

If you have any physical symptoms right now, this would help us determine which archetype you're working with. Also, waking life circumstances often give clues that correspond with dream imagery.

In any case, at the Black Rose level (as well as the other descent phase, the Yellow Rose), it's important to relax your resistance to what's going on. This doesn't mean to allow yourself to become a victim, but just knowing that a descent cycle is underway gives permission to bring your attention to it, to make room in your life to allow the descent to flow (i.e., spend time alone, meditating, nature walking, etc.), and to really feel into your emotions and body, without needing to label exactly what you feel. It's all about energetic flow at this point, letting your body/mind's higher functioning do its thing. Giving yourself space to fully be with the descent emotions without judging them often gives rise to insights that allow a quicker "bottoming out" that then ends the descent and begins the White Rose ascent.

I hope this makes sense! In a nutshell, it feels to me like you're beginning a new archetypal cycle (they always start with a Black Rose descent), and from just this one dream and your interpretation, you may be working with the Mystic archetype (although this could be wrong -- we'd need more dreams and/or a report on waking life circumstances to be sure) -- which, if true, suggests that the best way to approach things is through opening to inner guidance, respecting whatever insights arise, and doing your best to surrender to that guidance despite all the unconscious "stuff" that may be surfacing now. Know that this, too, shall pass!

Many blessings,
Michael

[charles W]

Thanks Michael! Much more than I was expecting, and much to ponder there. I will need a few days to think about that, but I suppose most immediately, this day Saturday I was feeling very good, I had a very good massage last night, slept well, and today I could feel a nice buoyancy and clarity to everything, a sharpness, I was looking at some colored paper and they all seemed so bright, like candies, it was a bit odd, then I meditated, and I could feel the energy was very strong, and I felt it intensify throughout my body, and I felt as though I was lift off the bed (I lie down to meditate), literally the pull was very strong, and then something that has never happened in all my years - the energy began to shake, quiver, like it was vibrating! This happened in about two waves, I continued to meditate for about an hour as usual, but it was just a nice steady 2nd jhana I would say. Perhaps a bit of third, because after I finished, my sense of remaining in an altered state of consciousness was quite strong, buoyant and empty, it actually usually is, but today was more intense than usual.

Yes I would say that this does feel a bit like it might a transitional stage of some kind. Previous in the week my ham strings seized up, neck too, I'm a chronic pain person, this happens sometimes, but not for a while. Also for about three months I had a very painful muscle spasm in the right side of my back along the spine, maybe a bulging disc, subsided now about one month. I'm 41.

And I met a new friend yesterday and had a good chat, odd because I had just started a fresh facebook, so she is my first friend! Have had a bit of a hiatus for a few months now.

[charles W]

Well last night I had a dream in which I had a sexual encounter with a women who is a colleague, same profession but we have never met. I had been looking at her picture the day before on the facebook I use for business, not dwelling just noticed a post she made on mothers day; anyways it was a group of people, and I was on top of her clothed, poised in a romantic sort of pre-embrace, no sex, it didn't happen, but the feeling in the dream was very erotic I suppose, ecstatic bliss perhaps, then I think I later pursued her with the intention of making love, hard to recall what was going on, but it didn't happen, my expectations were thwarted and I recall in the dream feeling frustrated that my advances did not lead anywhere.

Odd how talking about these things seems to have manifested a result in the dream sphere...

Thank you for your feedback Michael very much appreciated!

[charles W]

Had a stranger dream today, it was like I and some other people were super heroes in a comic or graphic novel, the feeling of the dream was sinister and not pleasant. I believe we were a group part of the same team, but about 3 of them went rogue and started hunting and killing the others. I was with my sister, they caught her, I managed to get away, but I saw in my mind them making a slight incision on her stomach, the image is not so bad, but in the dream it was something evil and terrible. I was not far, and I climbed a wall, the classic trying to escape in slow motion, climbing up the wall, there were some branches above the wall, when I grabbed them to help me pull up they broke. But I managed to get to the top of the wall, but I could not see really, it was dark, and my vision was distorted as though from a drug, so I could not see straight.

There was more, but that is as much as I remember at the moment. This dream seemed to come from a little deeper, not related to anything I had done or seen the previous day. But my sister was there, the only real world connection as far as I can recall.

[charles W]

Just a small aside, I have never been close to my sister, she was never a 'big sis' to me in any way. She seemed always resentful and unpleasant towards me, and quite bad in my 20's all the way up to today. But she supposedly is like that with everyone. Uptight, tense, control freak, never keeps in touch. In the last year she was diagnosed with a 'one step before MS' condition which scared the crap out of her, she went on a diet and has lost a lot of weight. She was enormous, I was hocked when I saw her about 2 years ago, that was after 9 years of not seeing her at all. My initial reaction was 'serves her right, she's getting what she deserves', but I did email her after and expressed concern, but deep down, I do resent the way she treated me in the past.

Anyways, one thing that bothers me deeply, is how my older siblings never looked out for me (I am the youngest), we get blamed for our actions, but the people in our families who could have gone a long ways to listening/watching/helping/supporting/teaching/being a role model, just didn't, but they don't get blamed, some how we get laid with the blame when in fact it could be said that there is a deep network of relations and mutual responsibilities in any family arrangement that should not be looked at as being mutually exclusive, a family could be seen, in a sense, to be like a 'one mind', with several inter-related parts. The dysfunction of any part affects the whole, it makes the whole dysfunctional; but in nature wholes consume the parts and heal what is required in order to restore the full function of the organism.

But I digress...

[jhananda]

I have been monitoring this discussion of dreams, and find it interesting. charles W, do you meditate? Because you seem to be more lucid in your dream-world than others; and people who meditate, especially deeply, tend to be more lucid in their dream-world.

[charles W]

Thank you Jeffrey for your reply, yes I do meditate, I enter 2nd Jhana daily, less frequently 3rd, and I cannot say I have facility with 4th. When I was younger I had a very profound spiritual awakening, kundalini was the best description that I found at the time, but 4th Jhana also seems to be a good description, that lasted 2 months. It was that which set me on the path, from that time there was nothing else of greater significance that I ever aspired for. I don't usually pay too close attention to my dreams these days, but those recent ones seemed significant for some reason, since I have been noting them more have occurred. So I follow what seems like a little process of some kind, I'm not sure where it is leading, but thank you for your support!

[jhananda]

Thank-you Charles for your response. Since you do say you meditate deeply, and that you are a dedicated contemplative, then there might be other aspects of the dream that might be relevant to you. From monitoring my own dream content for 4 decades it appears to me that some of that content is best understood as previous lifetime recollections, or at least fragments of some dreams might be so.

Other layers of the dream content might also be best described by considering the the dream-world is not just your brain randomly dumping neurons, or working out emotional content. Here I propose that some of this dream content might be shared "collective unconscious" whereby the dreamer is in a spiritual dimension of shared dream material. This would mean that not all of that dream content is being generated by yourself, but by others.

Now, if we re going to entertain the idea of a shared "collective unconscious" or spiritual dimension of shared dream material, then we might be willing to consider that the dream-world or collective unconscious is not a flat plane, but has layers like an onion. Therefore, when we function on one plane we are going to get common themes. When we move to another layer, then there are going to be other themes that are common to that layer. This means the lower layers might be hellish, and the upper layers might me heavenly, and the many layers in between are shades of gray between hell and heaven.

So, please consider these possible aspects that might contribute to your dream content, and tell us what you think?

[charles W]

Yes I think I see what you are saying Jeffrey, I am dwelling on the content itself and that is because I really have no experience of the larger domain from which that content is coming, it does seem to make sense then to contemplate becoming more lucid and aware of the larger domain, and thus perhaps what would be of greater value would be to discuss ways and strategies for entering the non material domains.

Having followed various posts here on the subject, I am aware that becoming a rigorous contemplative is the first step, and perhaps a step which I am taking longer than usual with.

Those are intriguing ideas you suggest, but I must be honest and say that I have no experience with them. But I do believe that dreaming is in a sense already an OOB experience of sorts, and when we become lucid, then perhaps the line grows thinner?

I have on a few occasions drifted off in my meditation, but not to sleep, but into a lucid dream in which I believe to be real. What marks these as different from just falling asleep for a few minutes, is that when I have returned to the body, for the first few moments of body awareness, I do not know who I am, where I am, space-time orientation is gone, and I am panting heavily from something frightening in the dream-dimension, and I am drenched in a cold sweat. When I finally calm back down, on the few occasions this has happened, I find myself in 3rd Jhana, an empty, peaceful state of non-perception, which lasts for the day until I sleep.

C

[jhananda]

May 17, 2013 14:34:34 GMT -5 @charles W said:

Yes I think I see what you are saying Jeffrey, I am dwelling on the content itself and that is because I really have no experience of the larger domain from which that content is coming, it does seem to make sense then to contemplate becoming more lucid and aware of the larger domain, and thus perhaps what would be of greater value would be to discuss ways and strategies for entering the non material domains.

Having followed various posts here on the subject, I am aware that becoming a rigorous contemplative is the first step, and perhaps a step which I am taking longer than usual with.

Correct, becoming a rigorous, self-aware contemplative was my entry into the immaterial domains, and it is what gave me the, insight, lucidity and equanimity to gain facility there.

May 17, 2013 14:34:34 GMT -5 @charles W said:

Those are intriguing ideas you suggest, but I must be honest and say that I have no experience with them. But I do believe that dreaming is in a sense already an OOB experience of sorts, and when we become lucid, then perhaps the line grows thinner?

Yes, I agree, being in the dream-world is essentially an OOBE; and the difference is essentially one of lucidity. We gain lucidity in the immaterial domains by leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life.

May 17, 2013 14:34:34 GMT -5 @charles W said:

I have on a few occasions drifted off in my meditation, but not to sleep, but into a lucid dream in which I believe to be real. What marks these as different from just falling asleep for a few minutes, is that when I have returned to the body, for the first few moments of body awareness, I do not know who I am, where I am, space-time orientation is gone, and I am panting heavily from something frightening in the dream-dimension, and I am drenched in a cold sweat. When I finally calm back down, on the few occasions this has happened, I find myself in 3rd Jhana, an empty, peaceful state of non-perception, which lasts for the day until I sleep.

C

Yes, it sounds like you may have drifted into the immaterial attainments from some level of jhana; however, it is likely to have been the 4th jhana that you were crossing back and forth through.

[charles W]

Thank you for that feed back Jeffrey.

[charles W]

I will try to post meditation experiences and dreams here, I used to notate them down but found I never looked at them again and they eventually disappeared.

Tonight, meditated for about 2 hours. An unusual session as I normally meditate for an hour. It felt like I was on a trickle charger, with the energy taking forever to grow. But it was steady and constant, I felt very relaxed, after an hour I began to feel itchy tinglings on my face which was like mosquitoes or ants, I resisted the temptation to itch. Eventually I finally swelled into 2nd, but just for a moment, I don't know why. It really did feel as though my body was filling with energy, like a liquid, and although it took a long time to swell into second, the energy was actually stronger than usual.

One thing which was new, was that eventually I felt my third eye open and when I breathed in, the air was cool, like menthol, and it went right up into my third eye and stimulated that area. My heart and throat chakra was also open. I don't usually have a strong sensation with the crown chakra, I brought my awareness to this area on the in breaths, but there was not much going on. The third eye area was strongly stimulated, and I have not had this exact sensation before of the air feeling like it was cool menthol stimulation the upper nasal cavity and third eye region. Very pleasant.

[jhananda]

May 21, 2013 18:07:27 GMT -5 @charles W said:

I will try to post meditation experiences and dreams here, I used to notate them down but found I never looked at them again and they eventually disappeared.

Tonight, meditated for about 2 hours. An unusual session as I normally meditate for an hour. It felt like I was on a trickle charger, with the energy taking forever to grow. But it was steady and constant, I felt very relaxed, after an hour I began to feel itchy tinglings on my face which was like mosquitoes or ants, I resisted the temptation to itch. Eventually I finally swelled into 2nd, but just for a moment, I don't know why. It really did feel as though my body was filling with energy, like a liquid, and although it took a long time to swell into second, the energy was actually stronger than usual.

Often times I find people misinterpret their meditation expereinces, not that we need to build our ego around attainment, but it is useful to know where one meditates to, so that one can know where one needs to go for depth.

Typically when one feels very relaxed, then it is likely that the mind is still. If the mind is still, then by definition, one is in the second stage of the religious experience (2nd jhana).

The attainment of the second stage of the religious experience (2nd jhana) is confirmed by the "itchy tinglings" which often times swarm all over the body. This is the emergence of the hypersensitive phase, which precedes the 3rd stage of the religious experience (3rd jhana).

As we go deeper into the religious experience we find energy (virtue, virya) rising, which confirms that we are in deed going deeper into the religious experience. When we observe the signs of the religious experience (jhana-nimitta) then we find we go deeper into the religious experience. I find I use the signs and characteristics of the religious experience (jhana-nimitta) as my object of meditation. When I do, I find I go much deeper into the religious experience.

May 21, 2013 18:07:27 GMT -5 @charles W said:

One thing which was new, was that eventually I felt my third eye open and when I breathed in, the air was cool, like menthol, and it went right up into my third eye and stimulated that area. My heart and throat chakra was also open. I don't usually have a strong sensation with the crown chakra, I brought my awareness to this area on the in breaths, but there was not much going on. The third eye area was strongly stimulated, and I have not had this exact sensation before of the air feeling like it was cool menthol stimulation the upper nasal cavity and third eye region. Very pleasant.

Most of those who have a genuine religious experience do experience sensations associated with the Indic concept of chakras, which confirms the theory of the chakra.

Good work, keep meditating to that depth, and being self-aware in every moment, and you will become quite a mystic. Do consider joining us in retreat some time. One is coming up in Flag Staff, AZ over the summer solstice June 13-23.

[charles W]

Thanks for the invite Jeffrey, and Michael, I would definitely be there but I unfortunately don't live or work in the states.

Yes there are times when I feel that I don't really know what's going on with while meditating, 2nd I associate with a somewhat sudden shift (or sometimes subtle slip) from the mind stream, it used to more or less stop with a quite joyful burst into infinite space, now I tend to more or less 'slip' into 2nd, thoughts subside, and the level of ecstatic bliss is very high. As though someone had just lifted a great weight off of my chest, the stomach region often feels hollow, empty, delightful. The interior feeling is an infinite space, thought streams more or less disappear here.

If I do reach third, then it is a feeling of complete emptiness, I experience this as a state of non-perception, I feel no stress or hindrance when speaking with another person, I feel completely rooted and calm and peaceful.

4th, well I'm not sure about this at all, I have not experienced very often a higher level of emergence from 3rd, and can not yet associate what ever is experienced there with a tangible difference from third.

I hope the later part of this year will find some changes there.