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Post by Jonathon Doyle on Aug 15, 2010 13:18:47 GMT -5
Mahàsàropama sutta (MN 3. 9) "The Major Discourse on Heartwood". www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/mahasaropama-sutta.htmJeffrey and all, I started with this one, did you mean that they should be read in the order you gave? I could see there would be questions that arise from my reading, and I hope others will do the same so that we may create some discussion based around these readings. -First of all, I know what heartwood is, but I assume that what is being referred to here metaphorically is the 'heart' of the contemplative life? The essence? -victimized by birth, decay and death leaves the household life out of faith and becomes a homeless contemplative (samana) I like the way you have used the word 'victimized', Jeffrey (if that was your choice), implied that we did not choose to be placed in this life, one that has a 'way out', but a way that has not been realized, thus being born is an act of being victimized. -'This good man does not know the heartwood, sapwood, bark, limbs, twiggs or leaves. So this man in need of heartwood, wandering in search of heartwood, coming to a standing tree with heartwood has ignored the heartwood, sapwood, bark and limbs. He has cut off the twiggs and leaves and has carried them away thinking that is the heartwood. Whatever work he has to do with the heartwood, that he would not find.' Our 'blindness'? to that which is always before us? - the virtues: what are the 'the virtues'? -knowledge and vision: is this 'wisdom'? Insight? -timeless release of mind: 3rd Jhana and above? Combined with the virtues, knowing and vision? -disparage others: this is something I encounter all the time, people critizing others, I always do my best to not react or get got up in this kind of political back stabbing. Is this what is being referred to here? Sum up: "So then, bhikkhus, the holy life is led not for, gain, honor and fame, not for the endowment of virtues, not for the endowment of meditative absorption, not for the endowment of knowledge and vision. Bhikkhus, it is for the unshakeable release of mind that is the essence and end of the holy life. Basically I just practice meditation, entering 1-2nd Jhana daily, sometimes 3rd (we seem to be about the same Linda), so when I read "the holy life is led not for the endowment of meditative absorption", I wonder if I'm missing something here. Jeffrey can you clarify this?
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Post by jhananda on Aug 15, 2010 18:36:00 GMT -5
Hello Jonathon, it is excellent to read a reply from you. Everyone should feel free to post comments about the Phala Nikaya, because those question and answers will not doubt help others.
It does not matter which sutta one starts with. If you were attracted to the Mahàsàropama sutta (MN 3. 9) "The Major Discourse on Heartwood," then that is great. An important part of the contemplative life is learning to listen to our intuition. Also, these suttas are so deep that they often require many readings, so feel free to read through them over and over again.
Yes, I agree, Jonathon, the heartwood of this sutta is a metaphor for the 'heart' of the contemplative life. This means the contemplative life is all about liberation. The message that I have been working is jhana is the doorway to liberation. Thus, without jhana there is no liberation.
Yes, I believe the difficulties of life can often leave us feeling victimized, and it is this realization that suffering exists, and there is a way to end suffering that brings us to leading a rigorous contemplative life, which is what the Noble Eightfold Path is supposed to be about.
When we go seeking heartwood and come away with just a handful of leaves means one has become dogmatic about his or her interpretation of scripture and will not lead a contemplative life.
The virtues are about avoiding self-destructive behavior, such as drugs. A contemplative must be sober and lead an ethical life in other ways. This means avoiding the 7 deadly sins, or the 10 Hindrances, which are much the same thing. However, sobriety does not mean that one does not drink alcohol in moderation. Fermented beverages have health benefits when consumed in moderation.
Yes, I believe knowledge and vision is wisdom and Insight.
Yes, elsewhere in the suttas are described 8 liberations. You will see the description of these 8 liberations is none other than the upper 7 stages of samadhi and the final liberation, which occurs from mastering all 8 samadhis.
Yes disparaging others should be avoided, and is typically just back biting; however, that does not mean that we should not exercise critical thinking and even express that critical thinking.
Yes, I agree with the conclusion of this sutta (see below). Jhana is just a vehicle to liberation, but without jhana there is no liberation. However, since you experience the second jhana everyday, like Linda, then both of you are experiencing the first liberation, which makes you both Sakadágámi (once returners).
"So then, bhikkhus, the holy life is led not for, gain, honor and fame, not for the endowment of virtues, not for the endowment of meditative absorption, not for the endowment of knowledge and vision. Bhikkhus, it is for the unshakeable release of mind that is the essence and end of the holy life.”
Love to all, Jhananda
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Post by Jonathon Doyle on Aug 20, 2010 11:25:06 GMT -5
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Post by Jonathon Doyle on Aug 20, 2010 13:18:08 GMT -5
Ganakamoggallana Sutta (MN 107) Training Strategy www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/ganakamoggallana.htmDon't dwell? I think I know what he is saying, what would be some examples Jeffrey? BTW, what is the Tathagata? A shower of the way? Mindfulness and clear consciousness. What does he mean by clear consciousness, and how do you have that?
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Post by jhananda on Aug 20, 2010 18:08:59 GMT -5
Hello Jonathon, to answer your question regarding dwelling upon the content of the senses, we must realize that the Buddha was working with the ancient Pali language, which was pretty primitive. A mystic finds we are addicted to the content of the senses, which is what sensuality is all about. And, it is not strictly about being sexual.
Conversely, when we begin to become absorbed into the ecstatic altered states of consciousness we find another kind of sensory information, which is not the product of sensory stimulation. This sensory phenomena is charismatic, because it comes from the spirit domain. Thus we mystics do not reject all sensory phenomena. We just learn to discriminate between the sensory phenomena that originates from sensory stimulation and the sensory phenomena that originates as a product of the ecstatic altered states of consciousness. The latter the Buddha called, “jhana-nimitta,” and the mystic saturates him/her awareness in the charismatic phenomena 24/7.
On the term ‘Tathagata.’ It is often translated as “thus come one.” The suffix is gata, as in eka-gata, etc. The Pali term ‘gata’ means ‘gate,’ or ‘passage,’ so this term really means “one who has passed through or beyond the gate.” We should ask what gate? In this context then, the gate is the senses. We could also say it is materialism verse spiritualism. Thus the mystic has passed beyond addiction to the sensory phenomena and has aligned him/herself with the charismatic phenomena, which is ‘jhana-nimitta.’
Mindfulness, as it leads to liberation and enlightenment, is about being mindfully self-aware.
Clear consciousness is about stilling the mind, and freeing one’s consciousness from the habitual thinking of neuroses and attachment to sensory stimulation. One who has the daily attainment of jhana is one who is successful at being mindfully self-aware, and discriminating between sensory stimulation, verses the charismatic phenomena.
Love to all, Jhananda
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Post by Jonathon Doyle on Sept 2, 2010 13:55:52 GMT -5
Conversely, when we begin to become absorbed into the ecstatic altered states of consciousness we find another kind of sensory information, which is not the product of sensory stimulation. This sensory phenomena is charismatic, because it comes from the spirit domain. Thus we mystics do not reject all sensory phenomena. We just learn to discriminate between the sensory phenomena that originates from sensory stimulation and the sensory phenomena that originates as a product of the ecstatic altered states of consciousness. The latter the Buddha called, “jhana-nimitta,” and the mystic saturates him/her awareness in the charismatic phenomena 24/7.That is a brilliant description, Jeffrey, thankyou for that. So when you talk about 'recovery', you are implying not only what is usually thought of as recovering from, a substance or object of our attachment - whether that be a relationship, substance, or emotion, sickness - but recovery from 'sensuality' itself, from having senses, our interface with 'the world', into deeper and deeper states of awareness, the jhana-nimitta. I like what you said about learning to discriminate between the two, though what we favor is the jhana-nimitta because we have learned that the senses lead to addictions and neurosis. Bahiya Sutta (U 1.10) “Relinquishing Cognition” www.greatwesternvehicle.org/pali/Phala_Nikaya/bahiyasutta.htm"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of dissatisfaction (dukkha)."So he means that when the senses simply 'receive', but not cognize, we are free from the dissatisfaction encountered by living in the world of sensuality? Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from (pleasure) & pain,
he is freed. Is this the fourth Jhana?
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Post by jhananda on Sept 2, 2010 19:40:14 GMT -5
Hello Jonathon, it is a pleasure to receive another enquiry from you, and thank-you for expressing your appreciation for the GWV Ecstatic Buddhist counseling services. Yes, to me all addictive behaviors are unskillful means of self-medicating the anxiety (dukkha) that is the unenlightened existence. Yes, we mystics learn to favor the charisms (jhana-nimitta) over the sensual world. Sensual here means sensory domain. And, yes, I believe the Bahiya Sutta (U 1.10) is all about relinquishing the sensory domain, or cognition. And, I agree, I have found that when one arrives at saturation in the fourth jhana one is thus free from dukkha, which the suttas claim is true.
Love to all, Jhananda
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Post by Jonathon Doyle on Sept 3, 2010 4:12:17 GMT -5
Many thanks Jeffrey, its a wonder to have such an invaluable service available! J
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