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Post by jhananda on Aug 22, 2010 16:18:55 GMT -5
This thread was Linda's idea: Perhaps we could start an 'extraction survival guide'? How to live in this world as a contemplative, and stop participating and un/consciously 'contributing' to systems of oppression. We have mafia-style economies, free market greed and environmental disasters on a global scale. If these are the end result of 'objective reason' espoused by the foundational myth of the Enlightenment, then there must be something wrong with it.
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Post by jhananda on Aug 22, 2010 17:23:41 GMT -5
Thank-you Linda for suggesting this interesting topic thread. Since we have been on this topic for a while I went back and extracted some of the dialog and organized it by topic. I will repost some of it as the days go by. This is the first installment.
As a mystic and an Anthropologist it has become clear to me that the origins of civilization are in rapateous greed, ignorance, delusion, doubt, gluttony, lust, abuse of power, etc. To me the Garden of Eden is a metaphor for returning to the hunter-gatherer existence.
The enlightened mystics will always direct us back to our hunter-gatherer origins, because it is our natural position in the ecosystem. Being in our natural state means we are less anxious, less insecure and fearful.
When we return to the hunter-gatherer existence we become natural beings, like the rest of the creatures on earth. When we are hunter-gatherers we are natural beings, because we have become part of the ecosystem.
Death is natural for all creatures. The ecosystem manages itself very well, because when a creature cannot function in balance in the ecosystem, then it falls pray to its natural predators. It is the predator who weeds out the week and stupid and keeps all species optimized at their maximum effectiveness, because the predator-pray relationship is naturally tight.
Pray can keep ahead of its predator as long as it is functioning in its optimum capacity. When an organism falls below optimum, then the predator can catch up to it and consume it.
As natural beings we do not spend a lot of time thinking and pondering, because we are pray or predator, and in either case thinking will not help us, we must only be aware and act when necessary. When we are hunter-gatherers, then we do not have to worry about over-population, because starvation and predation will control the human population.
When we return to the natural state of being, we still have the capacity for thought, thinking, and reflecting, consciously; however, we are not unconsciously driven by these faculties. We have instead found the “off switch” for these faculties and then we use them only when necessary.
Love to all, Jhananda
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Post by Thomas on Aug 24, 2010 9:26:51 GMT -5
Jeffrey, what do you think of Osho, Krishnamurti, and Thoreau's Walden? Or there any other living mystics you recommend being familiar with?
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Post by Linda on Aug 25, 2010 12:24:01 GMT -5
thanks jeffrey! Institutional 'knowledge' is the instrument of power that pathologizes the 'mad', 'criminal', and 'sexually abnormal'. Systems of social control have developed together with the human sciences since the 18th century Enlightenment. Philosophy itself has been an accomplice in this 'power play' of dominating others by marginalizing them. Official histories filter, select, prioritize, and exclude other interpretations. I would add to Thomas's note above, Jeffrey, are their any contemporary (or classic) authors who's work you like? Would you spend time reading contemporary literature, do you see any value in that? (I have heaps of books, so little time...) Love to all, Linda
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Post by jhananda on Aug 25, 2010 16:54:30 GMT -5
I agree Linda, it seems every human social structure has its way of pathologizes or marginalizing, what it believes is a deviant. Unfortunately, that means mystics are most often perceived of as deviants. This would explain why I was marginalizing by Spirit Rock, Insight Meditation Society, and Theravadan Buddhism. This suggests that no one in these contemplative movements has any attainment what so ever.
To answer your question, Linda and Thomas, regarding contemporary spiritual teachers and philosophers. I find no evidence that there are any “living mystics” other than those who have found my forums, such as: Michael Hawkins, Sam Lim, myself, Nick, Neli, et al.
The 20th century batch of gurus seem to be devoid of any depth to their attainment. For instance, Rajnish, AKA Osho, was addicted to valium and laughing gas. He and his organization commonly drugged their followers to insure they had a “spiritual experience” when they visited. I found Muktananda resorted to the same practice.
In most cases, if these teachers ever had a spiritual experience, it was generally pretty lightweight. An example would be Krishnamurti, who seems to have had some facility with the second jhana, for which he got a lot of mileage out of his small attainment.
I really have not read much Thoreau, so I cannot say much about him, other than I have read a sampling of the transcendentalists and found their transcendentalism was pretty lightweight.
Those who I have studied and gained considerably from are: Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Rumi, Kabir, Patanjali, and Siddhartha Guatama. If any one finds the work of someone that is at the level of these mystics, then please let me know.
Love to all, Jhananda
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Post by Thomas on Aug 26, 2010 12:47:07 GMT -5
Laughing gas? Christ your kidding! Maybe thats why he tells such good jokes? What do you think of his writings Jeffrey? I've picked up a few and actually was surprised that he expressed some very useful, clear, ideas, that sometimes sounded a bit like you Jeffrey! I think it was some of his vehement remarks about the destructive nature of religions and how much he was opposed to following a belief system. He does sound remarkably well educated. I found what I read very enjoyable. I'm guessing from what I have read here, that the problem with all of these guru's, was that they were basically exploiting the West at a time when the knowledge and need for spiritual teachers was very high. Yes, some of them are well educated, have brilliant things to say, but none show a way to liberation in this very lifetime, which is what you are doing is that right Jeffrey? In this very lifetime, which means you gotta work at it, make sacrifices that none of these guru's demanded, they just scold and pronounce the word, but who sits down, reads, listens too, and responds to the individual needs of people like Jeffrey has done on a daily basis? Who?
Oh, I actually started off wanting to ask about Rumi and Kabir, what work would you recommend Jeffrey, perhaps some of your favorite? Are there any links we could put up here? Thanks very much, Thomas
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Post by jhananda on Aug 26, 2010 21:12:00 GMT -5
Hello Thomas. Yes, it is my understanding that Rajnish was a scholar of Sanskrit and Indic literature, and he worked as a professor for some time before becoming a guru. However, he clearly had little attainment, so his knowledge was purely intellectual, which would explain why he was into some serious materialism, such as collecting Rolls Royces, many, many sexual partners, wife swapping, drugs, etc.
To me it does not matter how wise someone sounds. It is better to see what kind of fruit they manifest. Rajnish only manifested the fruit of materialism (boga), so I never read even one of his books. He also had good ghostwriters, who wrote most of his material. My guess is he wrote nothing himself.
Yes, my work is all about demonstrating that anyone can become liberated in this very lifetime. One need only lead a skilled and rigorous contemplative life. And, you are right one must work hard at it, and make profound sacrifices to become liberated in this very lifetime.
Yes, read anything you can of Rumi and Kabir, but just keep in mind translator bias, world view of the author, etc. I have not links or book recommendations at this time.
Best regards, Jhananda
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Post by Thomas on Aug 27, 2010 12:17:47 GMT -5
Good grief, osho, what an asho. Well as far as the idea of 'extraction' goes, we most often hear about 'integration', but as contemplatives, how do we get out of the 'grind' of daily insanity that we encounter every where we turn. I would guess the first place is to be rigorous in ones practice. I had a kundalini awakening some years ago, and have been a 1-2 hour meditator for the past 2 years. So I would put myself in the 1-2 level Jhana on a daily basis. 1st Jhana I enter almost immediately, and I know that because my nasal passages always clear, as though i had just been hooked up to a clean cool air oxygen machine (no laughing gas). 2nd usually comes. Third is rarer. While it is one thing to isolate one self socially, what i feel i have done is come to need less and less social contact, forgetting sometimes that I haven't seen a friend for weeks. Perhaps one issue that you can advise us on Jeffrey is how to deal with family. One comes to see that your own family are as, I hate to say it, as insane as most people running the world . Or perhaps not totally out of their minds (I should be one to speak!), but we see, or I do anyways, that that family life that I grew up in is to large extent responsible for a lot of the neurosis related stress problems I suffer from today. So family is an issue. For example I hold a lot of resentment towards my sister, for never having been supportive when growing up. I don't want to see or talk to her, or maybe i should say, I don't know how to do that 'genuinely'. Not that I hate her, but it is a very artificial relationship in my opinion. None the less I would prefer it was better so how do we deal with these kind of issues, and are they issues for contemplatives to be concerned about? I mention that, because we are talking about the idea of 'extracting' oneself from the attachments and stress, suffering that binds us to insane living environments. Love to all, Thomas
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Post by roamer on Aug 27, 2010 15:25:35 GMT -5
Thomas, I too wrestle with how to keep genuine relationships with family and friends. Once one discovers the beauty and fullfillment of the inner spiritual worlds it just seems very hard to understand why anyone would pursue anything else, so its hard talking to ones you grew up so close to who are on such a different path.
I think best case scenario is to be able to have open discussions about your views and why you have arrived at such a practice and what it gives you in life. Worst case scenario is to work on practicing unconditional compassion towards family members who just don't care or don't want to talk about this stuff.
Of course this is really situational. If your family is dangerous, or abusive in some way, its probably best to keep away and hold compassion for them in your heart. If they seem to be just flat out not interested I would say its hard to say what sort of impression your making on them . When I look at myself and have seen all the phases I've been through and are still going through I can see that sometimes just the very small examples make the greatest difference in pulling me along my spiritual journey, maybe trying to open up genuine conversations with family members could provide some type of spark. Maybe not too, it seems to me hard to say when or why someone chooses to take up the spiritual effort in earnest, it certainly can't be forced through logic or sermons. I don't know just some thoughts.
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Post by Thomas on Aug 27, 2010 18:25:40 GMT -5
Good points Roamer, thx for that feedback.
I would agree on all points, it took 13 years before i spoke to my mother that i had had a kundalini awakening, and I've never talked to anyone else in my family about it. They know I meditate and do yoga, but I doubt that means anything to them, but how could it? And I have no interest to explain or even talk about it to them.
After all that, I realize it just doesn't make any difference to someone like my own mother WTF I do or have done, they can't understand, and even though she has entered 1st Jhana on occasion through prayer, which I talked to her about, and that perhaps she might want to try meditating everyday, it just doesn't make any difference to these people. They aren't going to make any changes, they are set in their 'views' I guess you would say (but I doubt they have ever thought about what a view is or what it means). To me they are just like Zombies walking through life without a thought in their head (or ecstasy in their heart I suppose we should say...).
But to think that when we meet, I mean family members, you are forced in a way to talk about the most mundane things, for me THAT is a waste of time, and while giving the report perhaps fulfills some sort of 'function' of being a family, I would prefer to just say to hell with the 'family', if they are incapable of seeing what is of true value in life, then yes, please do exclude me from your madness...
However, I think this is simply causing myself stress to think this way, and your suggestion of "holding compassion for them in your heart", is better. I suppose the way I am thinking presupposes that people 'should' change and see and understand the way "I" think, how can they? And why should they? But then that is self defeating, a tit for tat approach, when I would prefer to be able to communicate with them without having to even worry about these things. So your advice is good, thanks again.
Love to all, Thomas.
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Post by roamer on Aug 27, 2010 19:44:44 GMT -5
Thomas, I hear you loud and clear about not wanting to waste time talking about the mundane. I get that feeling very strongly, and in general I try to steer clear of those situations. When I can't though I've sort of learned to play both sides of the situation, inwardly I'm meditating and or holding compassion, this takes most of my attention, then outwardly I entertain the unavoidable mundane conversation. I think anyone who has had some degree of awakening really gets an urgency that demands we not waste time on getting stuck in mundane states of mind.
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Post by Jonathon Doyle on Aug 28, 2010 5:04:53 GMT -5
Jeffrey and all, what are we defining by 'extraction' and survival?
Would it be possible to talk about this idea in terms of strategies and goals?
Best to all, J
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Post by Thomas on Aug 29, 2010 11:48:45 GMT -5
Jeffrey and all, what do you think of Thich Nhat Hanh? Good reviews for "The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching". Any other recommendations?
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Post by jhananda on Aug 29, 2010 18:26:03 GMT -5
Hello friends Thomas, Linda, Nick, Jonathon, Michael, et al. I suppose extraction survival guide for mystics, is really a good term, because as some of you have already noticed, if you tell your family and friends about the kinds of spiritual experiences you are having, they tend to have a pretty negative response. Arguably it is also “strategies and goals.” My strategy with my family was just to consider myself an orphan and go on from there, because my family of origin was pretty dysfunctional. I think every situation is different, so each person should deal with extracting themselves from the family web in whatever way works. After all, extraction might just be inviting your family to join you in your ecstatic journey.
On spiritual teachers of our times: Rajnish, aka Osho we have already put into the class of materialists masquerading as spiritual masters. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche is another such pretender with a drinking problem and sexual addiction. Franklin Albert Jones aka: Bubba Free John, Da Free John, Da Love-Ananda, Da Kalki, Da Avadhoota, Da Avabhasa, Adi Da Love-Ananda Samraj or Adi Da. This one seems to have had a identity crisis in addition to addiction to committing “bazaar and demeaning sexual practices with his devotees.
Thich Nhat Hanh and the Dalai Lama, on the other hand, were an inspiration for me for many years. However, I was not welcome to receive refuge from either of them when it was found I had jhana. We can conclude, while they might be reasonably honorable and respectable priests, they certainly are not mystics.
My computer died a few days ago, and I am only just finding ways to use the library computers to continue to serve the Ecstatic Buddhist community. So, my services will be limited until I either repair my computer or track down another one.
Love to all, Jhananda
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Post by Thomas on Aug 30, 2010 15:01:11 GMT -5
Interesting to hear your feedback Jeffrey, many thanks! I was a bit surprised that Thich Nhat Hanh and the Dalai Lama did not welcome you to receive refuge from either of them when it was found you had jhana. What happened may I ask? Rodney Smith has a new book "Stepping Out of Self-Deception: The Buddha's Liberating Teaching of No-Self" and any thoughts on Eckhart Tolle? Touted as "An Advaita Vedanta and contemporary non-dualist teacher." Love to all, Thomas
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