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Post by jhananda on Apr 17, 2011 8:14:42 GMT -5
Hello Don, you could have indeed been in the third jhana. If you had arrived at a still mind before that, then we would be sure that you had arrived at the second jhana. After the second jhana comes a hypersensitive phase where we become intensely aware of our neuroses and our surroundings. And, your additional message strongly suggests that you have arrived at the hypersensitive phase prior to the third jhana.
When I first arrived there almost 4 decades ago, I thought I would go mad, because of the intense level of anxiety that I became aware of. And, like you, I became aware of how important it is to learn to relax deeply, and, like you, I used the breath as a vehicle to relax.
However, as my contemplations (samadhi) deepened I found that I needed to learn to live a lifestyle that was not anxiety producing. Doing so meant that I had to take my second jhana meditation into my daily life. And, I found as I lived such a lifestyle I found that at some point the anxiety that I felt was no longer mine, but the anxiety of people around me, so that is when I retreated into the wilderness where I found peace.
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Post by jhananda on Apr 17, 2011 8:30:34 GMT -5
Hello Nelly, yes there are differences between the three mainstream schools of Buddhism. What holds them altogether is they are all Abhidhammaica schools; whereas, the Ecstatic Buddhist school of the Great Western Vehicle is not an Abhidhammaica school.
An Abhidhammaica school is one that subscribes to the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma is the third "basket," or collection of the Buddhist Cannon. The Abhidhamma arrived in its full form in the first century BCE under King Melinda.
The theory of interdependence of Mahayana Buddhism is the product of numerous translation errors that crept into the dharma when it was translated from Pali to Sanskrit, again under King Melinda. The theory of interdependence of Mahayana Buddhism is basically a corruption of Dependent Origination. Dependent Origination was the psycho-physiological model that the Buddha used to support his ecstatic model.
Under King Melinda the Buddha's ecstatic model was corrupted by the early Mahayanists. It was later turned into a kind of Marvell Comic book super hero model under Mongolian Vajrana Buddhism.
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Post by don on Apr 17, 2011 20:44:56 GMT -5
Yes I agree that I need to learn to live a lifestyle that is not anxiety producing, simple, true, and not so hard to do...thank you Jeffrey.
I re-read my post and thought what was I thinking, what was wrong with me, spinning out a narrative, and then like in meta-fiction, I see it for the construction that it is, I suppose it is about dis-identifying with the stories we tell ourselves, breaking the hold they can take over us as 'interpretations' of who and what we are.
I had a very good meditation this morning, I'm not sure if I enetered 3rd or 2nd, I think it was second, but I must say Jeffrey that the divisions between them have become much 'softer' over the years, not as intense as they used to be, but I wonder if I am not 'over-all' at a higher level of energetic awareness now than I used to be, I feel myself sort of slip into Jhana rather than there being any strong pull like there used to be when enetering 2nd Jhana for example. Today I felt that expansiveness come, like 2nd Jhana, and the breath became quiet and subtle, and it felt so self-sustaining, I was thinking of the 4th when you have said one feels as though you could sit all day, it was a bit like that but I think it was only 2nd. Also, I find thinking does quiet, but it used to really feel like it just stopped, subsided with an intense energy in 2nd, maybe 2-3 years ago, but now I find while I enter 2nd more often, the energy is softer, and I do have thoughts, they feel a bit more volitional, but I often find myself thinking about something which kind of bugs me.
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Post by Nelly on Apr 17, 2011 21:03:13 GMT -5
Ah, I went and re-read the mission statement on the GWV Jeffrey, I think I'm a bit slow, so the GWV is your own creation? What does the GWV mean, I mean why do you call it that? I have seen you talk about how the abbhidhamma is flawed, can you say again why you reject it? Also I was thinking that the GWV was a Mahayana form of Buddhism, but you have emphasized the 'ecstatic' component and made it non-denominational, so you are not really interested in it as a school of thought, in fact you mean you reject it as a flawed spiritual guide, but use that form as a practice strategy, which is for the most part outlined in the Pala Nikaya?
Can you explain Dependant origination, I read several descriptions but was a bit confused!
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Post by jhananda on Apr 18, 2011 8:31:18 GMT -5
Hello Nelly and Don. Don, do just keep going back to that still mind, and do nail it good, so that you can progress deeper. But, I would agree with you about the levels of contemplation not having hard boundaries. To me it is just shades of gray with distinctive aspects. Nelly, I have written on both Abhidhamma and Dependent Origination. You can find links to my essays below. Regarding the GWV and its mission statement. I am not at all about validating the lies that all religions have perpetrated for thousands of years; however, I am all about validating the mystics that have arisen within all religions, which makes the GWV a Great, or superior vehicle. Thus, I accept Siddhartha Gautama, Patanjali, Moses, John the Baptist, Jesus, Kabir, Rumi, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, as some of the Buddha's/avatars/messiahs that have come to this planet to help guide these misguided humans beings. A Critique of the Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga www.greatwesternvehicle.org/criticism/abhidhamma.htmUnderstanding Dependent Origination (paticca samuppada) www.greatwesternvehicle.org/dependentorigination.htm Understanding the Intimate relationship between Dependent Origination, Absorption and Insight Through Examining the Buddha’s Night of Enlightenment groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/files/Jhanananda/night%20of%20enlightenment.pdf Best regards, Jhananda
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Post by nelly on Apr 18, 2011 15:01:47 GMT -5
Thank you Jeffrey, I thought there was probably some essays there, there just is a lot of material to look through, will read through those. I googled 'ecstatic buddhist' last night, and found just your work Jeffrey, I really didn't know that this is really your baby, I was thinking that this was a term in the literature or something. At first I was overwhelmed by the task you have taken upon yourself, and later thought how deep and far reaching the implications of your perspective would have not only on the west, but the whole world; it has to ignite at some point and become the foundation for truth in every society, what do you think? Maybe I'm not saying that quite right, but having been a pre-school teacher for many years, I know how truly difficult it is to really teach well, because 90% of the time you are fighting in some form or other against the school itself, administration etc, the kids, egos, parents, who look for ways to thwart your attempts at every opportunity. In relation to this, I found the Uk Meditation board where you posted some videos, and was appalled at the reactions of the people there. It was clear as day to me, someone who has very little experience with Jhana, that NO ONE who posted against you had any experience with Jhana, the most fundamental component of any spiritual life. While some may ask why you bother to fight them (if that is the right word), I know from my years of teaching, unless you do fight, they WILL crucify you. One becomes aware that you have nothing but your personal integrity to rely upon, your own sense of ethics and talent as a teacher, while there are friendly and helpful people among your peers, in my experience, they were always the first ones to stab you in the back. Now when I think of a mystic, someone who opens him/herself to an entire society, knowing full well the consequences, it seems almost like a death wish! Does one remain quiet, and allow the teachings to stand for themselves? Well that is one way, but they will still crucify you, force you to speak and defend yourself, and always to engage at the level of ego.
Anyways, do you have any plans for the board Jeffrey? Have you found any new contemplatives through utube et al?
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Post by jhananda on Apr 19, 2011 8:26:37 GMT -5
Thank-you Nelly, for posting your very insightful understanding of my work. Considering that I found most of the stages of contemplation (samadhi) in the first year of my contemplative life almost 40 years ago, and every meditation teacher I ever studied with attempted to invalidate, if not marginalize me, and nearly 40 years has gone by, and all I have to show for my work is what little you see, then I believe it is reasonable to conclude that very few people are genuinely interested in enlightenment in this very lifetime. If they were, they would have found what I have found, and many of them would have become friends.
We can also conclude that I am unlikely to ever be recognized for my accomplishments in this lifetime. But, if that tiny community of sincere seekers for enlightenment find me before I am dead, and I can help them in any way, then this lifetime would have been a profound success.
However, it is true that my work in these 4 decades has certainly found the occasional person who had found some portion of the same things I have found from leading a rigorous, self-aware, ethical contemplative life. Michael Hawkins is the person who has found the most success in the contemplative life of anyone I have met in this lifetime, and I am very happy to have met him and honored to have made a small contribution to his journey to enlightenment. It means there is at least one person who can carry on this work. Therefore, this lifetime has already been a profound success.
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Post by Nelly on Apr 23, 2011 10:20:51 GMT -5
Jeffrey, is it possible to enter the non-material domains while conscious? I mean awake and walking around?
Last year I was sick, and on the way to work one afternoon, I broke out in a cold sweat, and felt myself going to faint, as it intensified I heard the growing sound of a distant waterfall, it was like it was multi-tracked in over the environment sounds, it overpowered the environment sounds, I put my head in my hands to try to stop from falling on the floor with people all around me, drenched in sweat. It gradually subsided, but although it did feel like an altered state, it was a horrible feeling, probably because I was ill, but it seems also to have occurred because I was ill?
I have been reading the essays, Dependant origination seems a little difficult to sum up, but basically it was the Buddha's 'dissertation' on the origin of grasping, the senses or skhandas, most importantly being that this 'principle' placed the origin of suffering in the hands of the individual, not a 'god' outside the self, coining the 'mind-body' connection which sounds a lot like modern psychology!
I'm just wondering Jeffrey, you mentioned that the Mahayana theory of 'interdependence' was a corruption of Dependant origination, I'm not sure I quite understand the relation?
-Nelly
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Post by jhananda on Apr 24, 2011 9:30:13 GMT -5
Hello Nelly, yes, it is true that one can gain a peek into the various stages of the 8 contemplations (samadhi) under various conditions. For instance attending a 10-day meditation retreat, or while ill. And, your experience of the roaring sound while ill, is an example of experiencing the sound charism. Most mystics accept the various charisms are glimpses into the immaterial/heavenly domains.
Yes, I consider the Buddha's dependent origination was an expansion of his Four Noble Truths into a full-blown thesis that combined the mind-body, or neuro-physiology into an integrated psycho-somatic model. And, I believe as western psychology developed its psycho-somatic model of neuroses, those Psychiatrists were reading Asian literature as it was being translated and interpreted into various European languages, and we could argue that the psycho-somatic model of neuroses came from the Buddha's dependent origination.
One of the many errors in Mahayana's interdependent origination is taking the Buddha's dependent origination out of its psycho-somatic model of neuroses and erroneously applying it to the physical universe.
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Post by nelly on Apr 24, 2011 15:31:25 GMT -5
Thanks Jeffrey, that is very intriguing, I want to first clarify what you said at the end: "taking the the Buddha's dependent origination out of its psycho-somatic model of neuroses and erroneously applying it to the physical universe."
Do you mean that the Buddha was not expressing what is often interpreted as 'interdependence' of all things, like an infinite web of connections that posit no 'center', or self, or separate individual, but only the dependence of suffering on the phenomenon of human perception?
So 'interdependent' is a misunderstanding, it is 'Dependant', and not 'interdependent? Dependant origination then is essentially and primarily a teaching that has to do with the problem of suffering and how to free ourselves from suffering, and not a description of the evolution of the universe?
And there are twelve components, or links, that make up dependent origination: (1) ignorance, (2) volition, (3) consciousness, (4) name and form, (5) the six sense spheres, (6) contact, (7) feeling, (8) craving, (9) clinging, (10) becoming, (11) birth, and (12) old age and death?
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Post by jhananda on Apr 25, 2011 8:04:59 GMT -5
One of the fundamental misinterpretations of the Buddha dhamma is to assume who was offering a new cosmology, which Mahayana Buddhism assumes. Well, if we read the first sutta in the long discourse we see clearly the Buddha was doing no such thing. Your reference to the "infinite web of connections" is yet another place where Mahayana Buddhism corrupted the dharma. The Sanskrit term for this is the Dharmamegha. It refers to the immaterial domains and has nothing at all to do with the physical universe.
Correct, "Dependent origination then is essentially and primarily a teaching that has to do with the problem of suffering and how to free ourselves from suffering, and not a description of the evolution of the universe? And there are twelve components, or links, that make up dependent origination: (1) ignorance, (2) volition, (3) consciousness, (4) name and form, (5) the six sense spheres, (6) contact, (7) feeling, (8) craving, (9) clinging, (10) becoming, (11) birth, and (12) old age and death?"
Dependent Origination in the suttas is all about what keeps us from experiencing the 8 stages of contemplation and has nothing at all to do with our place in the physical universe. It is when we can give rise to the 8 stages of contemplation that we find bliss and saturate our psyche with it thus eliminating suffering (dhukkha).
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Post by Nelly on Apr 26, 2011 20:18:46 GMT -5
Ah I'm beginning to get it Jeffrey, (a little bit), most sources from the net I referred to give alternately very confusing renditions of the term....so the 'origination' is about the origination of suffering, and about the dependency of suffering upon the 12 components of human's 'interface' with the world. Which would be what keeps one from experiencing the contemplative states of Jhana?
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Post by jhananda on Apr 27, 2011 9:05:49 GMT -5
Ah I'm beginning to get it Jeffrey, (a little bit), most sources from the net I referred to give alternately very confusing renditions of the term....so the 'origination' is about the origination of suffering, and about the dependency of suffering upon the 12 components of human's 'interface' with the world. Which would be what keeps one from experiencing the contemplative states of Jhana? Correct, Nelly.
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Post by don on May 7, 2011 15:45:33 GMT -5
Jeffrey, after a deep meditation this week, I went to sit and practice piano as I often do, I was sight reading through some Bach, contrapuntal music, and as is always the case after a deep meditation practice, I sat effortlessly fully focused and concentrated on what I was playing. What I became aware of was the pleasure of site-reading contrapuntal music (music with several voices happening simultaneously), and how my attention was able to maintain awareness of the interdependence of all the parts. The insight that I had was that contrapuntal music must have originated from a contemplative state of mind. Glenn Gould is sometimes referred to as having had a 'multi-track' mind, and I see now what that indeed means. Bach is always considered to be the 'foundation' of an instrumentalists practice, but nobody ever says why, and I would bet he has caused more musicians to stop playing than to continue. That must be because it requires the musician to enter the contemplative, self-organizing, states in order to master the language of counterpoint: and everything in music is to some degree contrapuntal.
While contrapuntal music gives the learner an object to focus upon, from two parts up, if we apply this model to life itself, in order to be here and now, fully 'present' in the moment (aka enlightened, 4th Jhana), one will become aware of 'everything' that is happening now, simultaneously...what do you think Jeffrey? I have had many spontaneous movements into an altered state when out doing something, for example, standing on the skytrain, and suddenly hearing all the voices around me with an equal level of clarity, or looking into a crowd of people and seeing a literal 'symphony' of movements, like all of the motion was in a beautiful dance with one another.
To draw a simple conclusion from this, I would say that music, and by extension, all arts, are contemplative practices; but contemplative practices which have lost their roots; as religion which has lost touch with the teachings of their progenitor. So while there will be talent, and those who are 'born' with a 'natural' ability, the reason that most people fail to obtain the contemplative goal of practice, is because we live in a society which does not value, read, or listen to its mystics.
Music, the arts, a song that one hums to oneself without attention, I would say are material 'interventions' from the human spirit. The spirit wants to engage with 'materiality', and through that engagement, transcends it. I'm not sure about this, but I find the 'thirst' for beauty, is what drives me to continue to make art. But that thirst is a desire, and the beauty is something unknown, like panning for gold, one spends 99% of the time sifting dirt. When I come upon something beautiful, I bring it into a notation, a form of translation, which may be re-created. The re-creation is another form of creation, performed by another, who may share that experience, and so allow others too, to go beyond it, to transcend the materiality of form, but through form, savor the formless. It would seem in this way that one eventually lets go of form, and acts only in the moment, without desires, but only with the spontaneous pleasure that arises through creation in this very moment, in this very lifetime. Living fully hear and now without any attachment to what arises, free to move and act in any environment, in every place and time; not in some artificially created 'stage' upon which one performs a Mozart sonatina... and aren't the rise of 'institutions' simply that: artificially invented stages through which society is organized and given back the 'right' to be a 'qualified' human?
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Post by jhananda on May 8, 2011 15:44:42 GMT -5
To draw a simple conclusion from this, I would say that music, and by extension, all arts, are contemplative practices; but contemplative practices which have lost their roots; as religion which has lost touch with the teachings of their progenitor. So while there will be talent, and those who are 'born' with a 'natural' ability, the reason that most people fail to obtain the contemplative goal of practice, is because we live in a society which does not value, read, or listen to its mystics. Don, you made some very good points. Your description of what takes place for you subjectively while engaged in producing inspired are sounds like the equanimity of the third jhana. I too have had the experience of the four jhanas while engaged in the world. It takes some skill, and this skills are often lost because mainstream religion has lost its roots in the contemplative life.
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