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Post by jhananda on Dec 11, 2011 8:37:14 GMT -5
I studied non-dualism and Advaita for nearly 40 years, but it is difficult to define Ramana Maharshi, because he was silent for so long and so little was written about him. Since non-dualism was his primary focus point, and he was not an ecstatic, then it suggests that he most probably had arrived at the 2nd jhana, which is the stilling of the mind, and nailed it good. The second jhana is a non-dual experience.
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Post by Josh on Dec 19, 2011 23:52:19 GMT -5
Ah thats interesting to hear, or at least thats not what the 'institution' of Ramana Maharshi would want us to hear, but who would know enough to question any of these sort of gurus? Well I reach 2nd Jhana pretty much everyday as well, although I do not live in a culture which would recognize the value of that and so I wasted the first 30 years or so of my life figuring out what this was all about, then many years coming to the realization that it is the culture which is screwed, not necessarily myself. And so major upheavals in life style change and so forth...what do you think of terrance Mckenna Jeffrey? Did he have anything to offer of value? His talks are always very convincing, but I have never investigated drugs in any depth, so all I could say would be, yeah, if more people tried them then perhaps more people would come round to actually becoming a contemplative. He was a botanist, and I had been thinking recently how plants to a hunter gather society would be sacred, all of nature is sacred, as it is what gives life and sustains us, as much as it is what takes life and destroys...but our societies in the west are built upon foundations of straight lines and right angles, deeper and deeper abstractions meant to tell us that what is true and real is something other, outside, and beyond our being, and being in the world.
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Post by Josh on Dec 20, 2011 2:51:02 GMT -5
Wherever and whenever the ego function began to form, it was akin to a cancerous tumor or a blockage in the energy of the psyche. The use of psychedelic plants in a context of shamanic initiation dissolved-as it dissolves today-the knotted structure of the ego into undifferentiated feeling, what Eastern philosophy calls the Tao. —Terence McKenna, Food of the Gods The mushroom, according to McKenna, had also given humans their first truly religious experiences (which, as he believed, were the basis for the foundation of all subsequent religions to date). Another factor that McKenna talked about was the mushroom's potency to promote linguistic thinking. This would have promoted vocalisation, which in turn would have acted in cleansing the brain (based on a scientific theory that vibrations from speaking cause the precipitation of impurities from the brain to the cerebrospinal fluid), which would further mutate the brain. All these factors according to McKenna were the most important factors that promoted evolution towards the Homo sapiens species. After this transformation took place, the species would have begun moving out of Africa to populate the rest of the planet [22] Later on, this theory by McKenna was given the name "The 'Stoned Ape' Theory of Human Evolution".[24]
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Post by jhananda on Dec 20, 2011 8:29:53 GMT -5
While I agree, Josh, society would be radically different if everyone were required to take at least one drug-induced psychedelic trip. However, to say that psychedelics are the source of religion only shows Terrance McKena is not a contemplative, because, if he were, then he would clearly see the founders of the various religions were all rigorous, self-aware contemplatives who became mystics. By the way, have you checked out the GWV's new forum for rigorous, self-aware contemplatives and mystics? It is called the Fruit of the Contemplative Life. You can get there at the following link www.fruitofthecontemplativelife.org/forum
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Post by Josh on Jan 2, 2012 7:29:47 GMT -5
Yes I see your point Jeffrey, was just watching this video with Rupert Sheldrake, and I see more than making a point about how Mystics are like Shamans in that through their experience of altered states they become the visionaries of a culture, they seem to be endorsing the use of psychedelics as the vehicle used to obtain that vision - rather than saying something more radical as you seem to be doing, because they can't, and no one can who is not a rigorous contemplative in the first place. www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-lQyGX05hA&feature=relatedNew board looks good!
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Post by jhananda on Jan 2, 2012 9:40:50 GMT -5
Well, I would say that the authentic mystic is the same as an authentic shaman; however, shamanism has the same problem that religion has, it is full of pretenders and has few authentic mystics, so they rely upon advocating transient religious experiences through taking drugs, because they do not know that the drug experience is just a synthetic religious experience. The only way to change one's life at its core is by leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life. Call that authentic shamanism, or authentic mysticism if you like.
Than-you for posting your kind thoughts regarding the new forum. Feel free to post something there, so that we can get some dialog going there.
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Post by josh bishop on Jan 27, 2012 19:37:42 GMT -5
Hello again Jeffrey, I have recently been feeling what feels like something I might call 'lonely', a feeling of a kind of absence from my life, no gf/wife/kids or close ties, few friends, a feeling of disconnection from culture, a feeling of being dis-functional, not able to really do anything that could gain recognition in the eyes of people who I don't even care about, but yes, I might call this feeling a kind of 'loneliness' if I didn't also sense, behind that emptiness and fear of becoming nothing of any importance to anyone, the 'pre'-sence of my own spirit. 'Pre' in that it stand prior to my sense engagement with the world, and I begin to understand about how some people say that being lonely is a good thing, but I have never really felt it tinged with depression, as I do now. I can see how this 'realization' of the emptiness, and meaninglessness of much activity in our lives can and could lead to depression, pain, anxiety and fear, obsessive compulsive activity, endless to do lists, filling the absence unconsciously so as not to have to feel the release that comes hand in hand with loneliness. I am guessing that I should embrace the loneliness more fully, but i suppose it is also in part a result that I am reaching middle age, and seeing that many doors are beginning to close about where to go, what to do, with the time and life that I have left.
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Post by jhananda on Jan 28, 2012 8:24:30 GMT -5
Hello again Josh, When we lead a contemplative life, then we also lead a self-aware life. That self-awareness can lead to awareness of our internal state, which could be loneliness, or depression, etc. And, the self-awareness can even amplify these feelings. So, one can only hope that such a contemplative also experiences the bliss, joy and ecstasy of the religious experience, then at those times, we turn to the bliss, joy and ecstasy to fill one to over flowing. We are then called a "mystic."
When we become a mystic we find our own solitude far more fulfilling than human interactions. In that solitude we are often misunderstood, and even marginalized by our very own priests, family, and friends. So, we go deeper into that bliss, joy and ecstasy.
So, being a mystic can be lonely, but it is full of bliss, joy and ecstasy. If we are lucky, then we will find other mystics to spend time with. That is what this forum is for.
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Post by josh bishop on Jan 28, 2012 21:16:43 GMT -5
thank you jeffrey.
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Post by josh bishop on Jan 28, 2012 21:22:04 GMT -5
I don't like to bring up the subject of psychedelics, but i have a chance to try mushrooms, and maybe LSD, and I am interested in DMT, just to perhaps get a deeper more profound taste of the religious experience, to say i have done and tried it, and to compare it to my own experiences. Have you tried DMT Jeffrey, and is it worth and try? (I actually dont currently know where i would even get it....) My apologies if this is not wholly appropriate to ask about here, but often i find while i find the bliss joy of the 1st and usually the 2nd Jhana, and less frequently the 3rd, my heart feels left out, I experience deep relaxation and profound mental clarity and deep revelatory insight, but my heart feels empty, and even, i don't know, a bit sad. Do you have any thoughts here Jeffrey?
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Post by jhananda on Jan 29, 2012 8:16:14 GMT -5
I don't like to bring up the subject of psychedelics, but i have a chance to try mushrooms, and maybe LSD, and I am interested in DMT, just to perhaps get a deeper more profound taste of the religious experience, to say i have done and tried it, and to compare it to my own experiences. Have you tried DMT Jeffrey, and is it worth and try? (I actually dont currently know where i would even get it....) Hello Josh, yes I have taken LSD, Mescalin, psilocybin, DMT, mushrooms, peyote, toad venom, marijuana, hashish, opium, etc. and found them all deficient compared to the religious experience; however, they can open some people up to the contemplative life and the religious experience. They can also cause serious damage to the psyche. My apologies if this is not wholly appropriate to ask about here, but often i find while i find the bliss joy of the 1st and usually the 2nd Jhana, and less frequently the 3rd, my heart feels left out, I experience deep relaxation and profound mental clarity and deep revelatory insight, but my heart feels empty, and even, i don't know, a bit sad. Do you have any thoughts here Jeffrey? Drug experiences are not likely to open your heart. It looks to me from reading your responses here that you are in a spiritual crisis. If you continue on with your contemplative life, then you are most probably quite close to moving to the next stage of spiritual awakening, which is the opening of the heart. You may wish to read the story of Teresa of Avila's spiritual awakening in which the Holy Spirit pierced her heart with an "arrow" of love. This story is a good description of the opening of the heart chakra. Just keep meditating and moving forward.
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Post by josh bishop on Feb 2, 2012 14:54:47 GMT -5
Yes it seems like it may be a crisis, i was hoping to have reached the 3rd jhana in every sit by the end of 2011, that was a goal at the beginning of 2011, but of recent i seem to have entered a slightly depressive state...anyhow, I want my heart to open, and feel as though I am missing out on much of what life has to offer.
I have been listening and reading more of the McKenna/Sheldrake/Abrham talks from 1989, and find them fascinating.
I have to agree Jeffrey that in spite of the brilliant musings of McKenna and his deep passion and insight derived from altered states of consciousness, that your simple assessment that mushrooms are not the basis of moving into a self aware contemplative life seems true, and while he does not dismiss the more respected yogi's attainments, it is clear that he seems to have never had any sort of spiritual awakening, or progress from meditation, and probably did not have the patience, or willingness to sacrifice his following, by dropping the psychedelics, and preach what the mystics taught.
But he seemed so close to that perspective, he even said that he wanted the altered deep states of consciousness not only for himself now, but for everyone, and that was the only way to do it in the shortest amount of time.
He seemed none-the less to have accomplished so much, and inspired several generations to delve deeper into altered states, in a way that I am glad for, the world would have been a more impoverished landscape without his courageousness, saying exactly what he felt to be ignored by the academic stranglehold of science and religion about altered states.
I have to say Jeffrey, that with a simple twist of his thesis re psychedelics as a way to leading a deeper life, that if that thesis was changed to 'leading a rigorous contemplative life with mystics as models', much of what he says would be as much applicable to his own thesis as it would yours. It seems he needed the speedy version. I wonder if you would agree with that or not Jeffrey?
I think for most people, spending ones life in meditation, and never achieving the really deep altered states and freedom of suffering, is deeply unsatisfying, and discouraging.
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Post by jhananda on Feb 3, 2012 8:19:04 GMT -5
I have to say Jeffrey, that with a simple twist of his thesis re psychedelics as a way to leading a deeper life, that if that thesis was changed to 'leading a rigorous contemplative life with mystics as models', much of what he says would be as much applicable to his own thesis as it would yours. It seems he needed the speedy version. I wonder if you would agree with that or not Jeffrey? Yes, I certainly see parallels between the psychedelic experience and the religious experience, and it was most certainly the psychedelic that helped me move to the contemplative life to have the bliss, joy and ecstasy all day every day that I experienced with psychedelic once a week. I think for most people, spending ones life in meditation, and never achieving the really deep altered states and freedom of suffering, is deeply unsatisfying, and discouraging. I agree, so you would think many more would be interested in leading a contemplative life that leads to the ecstasies, and you would think all of those priests were having the ecstasies, but they cannot be, if they are going to demonize me and my work, instead of welcome me into an ecstatic brotherhood.
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Post by josh bishop on Feb 17, 2012 19:44:51 GMT -5
Jeffrey, I've been listening to the 'tri-alogues' held between rupert shedrake, terrence mckenna, and ralph abraham from the year 1984-2000, and I have found the content of the discussions to be deeply engaging for the the very simple fact that everything they discuss revolves around the ecstatic altered states of consciousness (in this case, associated with psychedelics); and while I agree with you that while psychedelics can be a starting point, they cannot be the continued source of 'entry' into the altered states for the true contemplative. OR can they?
With a little more research on the web, I found there to be many large communities supporting dialogue centered around world issues that have evolved from the experience of ecstatic altered states of consciousness (for the most part associated with psychedelics). I cannot say that everyone in these communities believes that psychedelics are the only tool for personal transformation, but the more interesting ones are.
Should we not make a distinction between those who use psychedelics purely for self transformation and personal insight from those using harder, amphetamine type 'drugs' for partying, dissociation, and raves?
Having said that, psychedelics usually are the drug of choice for those wanting to engage in the collective energy that can catapult one into that collective synergy that can occur during rave cycles, and the sorts.
I know this is very generalized, and appears to lump everyone into the same group, but while I personally came to your work, and had my first spiritual awakening without ever having taken drugs (and I have never tried psychedelics), it seems the point I want to make, is that their are communities out there grappling with the issues you also discuss, and the marginalization associated with being 'ecstatics', and I see a parallel between the prohibition of psychedelics with the marginalization of all contemplatives and mystics through the ages.
Both parties are restrained by the economic and social powers to be and the subsequent brain washing and fear that is associated with any form of digression from leading a corporate bound vacuously consumer bound life style.
Does that make sense? I know it is sweeping and generalized, but what do you make of that Jeffrey? I wonder if the issue is not about converting psychedelic users to meditation, as it is about putting an end to prohibition, allowing the psychedelic experience to permeate and become a commonly accepted part of our cultures, which could then lead to the emergence of meditation as an even deeper and more fulfilling alternative to the choices that are already the birthright of every human being.
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Post by jhananda on Feb 19, 2012 9:32:35 GMT -5
I wonder if the issue is not about converting psychedelic users to meditation, as it is about putting an end to prohibition, allowing the psychedelic experience to permeate and become a commonly accepted part of our cultures, which could then lead to the emergence of meditation as an even deeper and more fulfilling alternative to the choices that are already the birthright of every human being. While I agree that psychedelics most certainly mimic the religious, and so offers a glimpse into the spiritual dimensions; nonetheless, there is not one single chronic user of psychedelics who has become a significant religious figure. The chronic user of psychedelics simply must learn to enter the spiritual dimension without the crutch of the drug, or they will not gain from the transformitive quality of the religious experience. I will agree, however, that both communities have been marginalized by mainstream religion and political structures back into pre-history. Investigating the reasons for that could make for a very interesting subject of discussion, but arguing that chronic psychedelic use is going to somehow transform an individual into a mystic has little support here.
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