Healing, meditation, and psychedelics

[Helen Elkinson]

Hello Jeffrey and Michael, I am new to this board and thank you for making this service available. I meditate daily and reach, from the descriptions I have read here, the second Jhana almost daily.

I have recently decided that I would like to try psychedelics to see if I can access a deeper level of spirit which may help to alleviate some of the chronic pain symptoms I have lived with for 20 years (associated with cervical spondylosis (disc degeneration at the neck) and myofacial pain).

I somehow believe that there are deeper levels of spirit which may hold a key to unlocking the cycles of pain which in my case seem to have very little explanation. My purpose then is to move towards wholeness, and not just to mask symptoms.

I have never used psychedelics before other than marijuana in the past 5 years, and am 40 years old. I realize this is not a support forum for the use of medicinal plants, but for healing purposes, may I ask for your advice in this endeavor?

Kind regards,
Helen

[Michael Hawkins]

Hello Helen -- and thanks for checking in with us. I hope you feel at home enough to discuss whatever is on your mind, as we are truly interested in fostering a community of ecstatics who would otherwise go without support of any kind.

It's wonderful to hear that you are reaching the second jhana on a daily basis. Thus, you are enjoying ever-deepening levels of bliss, joy and ecstasy even as "mind chatter" is reduced and/or eliminated.

One of the concepts that we use around here is that of the Dark Night of the Soul (idea lifted from St. John of the Cross), which is synonymous (in our minds) with the "gulf" or "abyss" separating second and third jhana. Many of us are confronted in that place with difficult physical realities (such as your cycles of pain due to cervical spondylosis and myofacial issues), as well as debilitating emotional residue connected with trauma, dysfunctional beliefs and other levels of social conditioning. It is possible to remain "stuck" for a lifetime (or more) at the threshold between second and third jhana, benefiting from having accessed self-arising ecstasy, but suffering due to an inability to "push through" to the "deeper levels of spirit" of which you speak.

Many (or most) of the ecstatic contemplatives who've participated in our discussion have some history with drugs, including powerful entheogens like mushrooms, peyote and LSD. Many (or most) of us would report that "something" happened during those experiences, although I've not heard of anyone actually getting to a point of realization that leads to permanent relief from suffering. We have, for the most part, adopted the conviction that one must attain all four of the "material" states of absorption, and then become at least somewhat experienced in the four "trans-material" states of absorption, which "opens a space" for ultimate liberation to occur. The healing that you seek, we typically assert, comes from regular "immersion" in ever-deepening absorption states, which have the effect of cutting the "fetters" of existence at their root. As we go about the business of cutting the fetters, physical suffering has a way of mitigating and/or dropping away -- although this is not, of course, guaranteed.

One of our goals is to offer wilderness retreats on a regular basis, so that contemplatives like you may receive meaningful and effective support in moving into the more "advanced" stages of absorption. From my own experience in retreat (especially), I can say that I've gone much deeper and much more fully into the ecstatic states than I ever did while under the influence of psychedelic substances -- and I've been far more "present" while in these states. Also, I've managed to traverse the Dark Night of the Soul via the retreat process -- not to say that suffering has ended, but, now that I'm able to get into third and fourth jhana pretty much at will, I have a much more profound context through which to understand my own suffering -- and I can honestly say that it doesn't amount to much when compared to the infinity that "I" actually am (you know what I mean!). We are in the final planning stages for a retreat inside the Gila National Forest in south-central New Mexico, running for about two weeks starting in mid-August -- if you're interested, I can send you a link to our planning discussion.

Anyway -- I hope this helps, or that it at least gets a satisfying discussion going.

All the best,
Michael

[Helen Elkinson]

Thank you Michael, I would not hesitate to join you if I were not so far away, in asia at the moment, and yes I agree I must be on the edge of the 3rd Jhana, and I have many glimpses of things that seem to be just out of grasp. As in today, the mind stopped, i felt the power of the 2nd jhana, the absorption arise within me, but there is something hesitant about the mind, like a small child that is afraid of taking the next step, or finally seeing the chatter mind for the illusion that it is, and casting it off once and for all. It is very abstinent, it pulls you back from the edge back into the drama of its endless hall of mirrors. One reason that I want to try mushrooms or LSD, is in a way to show the mind that there is more, to teach it, dispell the illusion so that it sees what comes next. Does that work? Does the mind say 'aha!', and knowing that there is so much more, finally let go more easily during meditation? I think all it will take is one good push, and I will be free...that is my sense anyway, perhaps it wont work like that, and thus my inquiry here. Thank you for your feedback it is much appreciated, and also for welcoming me into your community, a retreat would be lovely, but perhaps as a future event.

BTW: I have reached the emptiness of the 3rd Jhana before, but I do not access it very often. Sometimes I cross into that zone quite easily, but I think you are right, I have been at that abyss for a long time, I fear it could be much longer if I do not do something soon...

Kind regards,
Helen

[jhananda]

Welcome, Helen, to the Ecstatic Meditation Board of the Astro-Jhana Meeting Hall. Michael is a highly respected master teacher of the Great Western Vehicle (GWV) because he has mastered the first 4 stages of the religious experience. The Buddha called these 'jhana.'

As a sufferer of chronic pain as well, I can understand your aspiration to relieve your physical pain. I know from personal experience with the 4th jhana every day during meditation for the last 12 years, that it in deed does relieve a great deal of the pain that I nonetheless suffer with daily.

I have found that by starting every day with meditation to the depth of the 4th jhana I can carry with me all day long the bliss, joy and ecstasy of the 4 jhanas, as long as I attend vigilantly to maintaining a still mind that dwells upon the charisms that are associated with the religious experience (jhana-nimitta).

Nonetheless, I have found, while I can maintain the bliss, joy and ecstasy of the 4 jhanas, underneath that bliss, joy and ecstasy is profound pain. Sometimes, while in such deep meditation, my body lets out a grown, which I cannot suppress, because to get to depths of deep religious experience one must let go of everything at a very deep level. It is then that this, otherwise, well-discipline body, can voice its pain.

The thing to know is, if we attend to the body, then we attend to its discomforts. However, if we attend to the spirit, then we attend to its natural state of bliss, joy and ecstasy. One need only choose what to attend to.

On the topic of psychedelics. When i was young and stupid I took every psychedelic I could find in search of bliss, joy and ecstasy. I found bliss, joy and ecstasy with psychedelics; however, after the trip was over, there was even more pain and suffering, which was very frustrating for me.

I then started a daily meditation practice. I spent most of every day in meditation for that first year, because I quickly found bliss, joy and ecstasy that remained with me all day in between meditation sessions. I stopped taking psychedelics, because I found bliss, joy and ecstasy with the daily practice of meditation. That was 39 years ago.

I have also found that to consistently get to the 4th stage of the religious experience one must be meditating at 1-2 hours per session; and be regularly attending to such meditating sessions at least 2 to 4 times a day. One quickly gets there, because the more one meditates the more bliss, joy and ecstasy one finds.

The outside world does not respect someone who becomes a full-time contemplative, so you may find a conflict with your family and friends. My family disowned me, and my parents would not help me with advanced education; and they even wrote me out of their wills. Your priests and meditation teachers will think you are possessed and your fellow contemplatives will call you a bliss-bunny, as they have me. But, then, you will have far more bliss, joy and ecstasy than they will ever experience, unless they become bliss-bunnies like Michael, you and I.

[Helen Elkinson]

Thats very interesting to hear Jeffrey, thank you for your reply. I endeavor to cultivate the 4 material jhana daily, but would say I reach only the 2nd, most every day. More recently I have become aware of a subtler level of awareness, during my everyday life, and that is the sense that i am simply observing, from the perspective of my being, I dont know what to call it, because we end up throwing around cliches which simply mask the actuality of experience. But I would say that the experience is much more pervasive, and constant, than I have previously been aware. I am going to say it is like an 'over-mind', the characterizing aspect is that it feels like it is no where; like my mind is no longer in my head, or body, but everywhere, I don't know if that makes sense or not, I suppose I could call it the higher self, spirit, the observer, but the experience is something quite different to the conventional labels.

Kind regards,
Helen

[Helen Elkinson]

"The thing to know is, if we attend to the body, then we attend to its discomforts. However, if we attend to the spirit, then we attend to its natural state of bliss, joy and ecstasy. One need only choose what to attend to."

Yes I just read that again, thats very good.

On the topic of psychedelics again, Jeffrey and Michael, did you find that psychedelics helped your meditation practice in any way? I am wondering if they might help to deepen my own, I don't mean while doing them, but as a tool for teaching the body, by showing, the greater depths. Like I mentioned before, I feel I am on the verge of entering deeper states, between 2nd and 3rd Jhana, but perhaps am being held back by obstructions that I am not really aware of?

[Michael Hawkins]

Speaking for myself, Helen -- I've never connected my psychedelic experiences with subsequent levels of meditative absorption. There could very well be a correlation, but I was not very "conscious" or "aware" in my approach to psychedelics -- they were more of an escape hatch for me, such that any spiritual benefit was not grokked in the moment. On the other hand -- there were a couple journeys in there that totally transcended physical references -- which were, in other words, experiences in the non-material domain. As I now am able to reach those domains without the use of psychedelics, and "return" with much more peace and tranquility, it just doesn't occur to me to follow the psychedelic path. It could be the case that they would help in jumping across the 2nd to 3rd abysmal divide -- but I KNOW that a rigorous and skillful daily meditation practice will do the same.....

[jhananda]

Jul 28, 2012 16:13:06 GMT -5 @Helen Elkinson said:

Thats very interesting to hear Jeffrey, thank you for your reply. I endeavor to cultivate the 4 material jhana daily, but would say I reach only the 2nd, most every day. More recently I have become aware of a subtler level of awareness, during my everyday life, and that is the sense that i am simply observing, from the perspective of my being, I dont know what to call it, because we end up throwing around cliches which simply mask the actuality of experience. But I would say that the experience is much more pervasive, and constant, than I have previously been aware. I am going to say it is like an 'over-mind', the characterizing aspect is that it feels like it is no where; like my mind is no longer in my head, or body, but everywhere, I don't know if that makes sense or not, I suppose I could call it the higher self, spirit, the observer, but the experience is something quite different to the conventional labels.

Kind regards,
Helen

Your description of your experience of the second jhana sounds very non-dual. My experience of the 8 stages of the religious experience is they are all relative degrees of non-dualism, among other things. The reason why these stages of the religious experience are non-dual is because the identity is dissolving before the infinite.

Jul 28, 2012 16:22:25 GMT -5 @Helen Elkinson said:

On the topic of psychedelics again, Jeffrey and Michael, did you find that psychedelics helped your meditation practice in any way? I am wondering if they might help to deepen my own, I don't mean while doing them, but as a tool for teaching the body, by showing, the greater depths. Like I mentioned before, I feel I am on the verge of entering deeper states, between 2nd and 3rd Jhana, but perhaps am being held back by obstructions that I am not really aware of?

I agree with Michael, for most people the psychedelic experience is just an escape from reality; however, many people do have psychedelic experiences that verge upon the religious experience. Further, most of the case histories of the religious experience that I have collected indicate that most of the people who find it easy to access the religious experience had at least one psychedelic experience, which suggests that the psychedelic experience might open up doors of perception into the spiritual dimension. Nonetheless, only one trip is needed for those who find it useful to take a psychedelic. However, it comes down to a personal decision as to whether to take a psychedelic or not.

Stilling the mind is the hardest thing for most people to do. In fact it is so difficult to do that it seems few Buddhist priests ever still their mind, so they think westerners who claim to do so are liars. But, since you can still your mind, then you are proof lay westerns can still their mind. However, I would not think you would need a psychedelic to open doors of perception. But, maybe you do. It is your decision, and no one else's.

If you do chose to take a psychedelic I would recommend either mushrooms or toad venom. All other psychedelics are just too toxic, in my opinion.

On the other hand, meditating with accomplished mystics, like, Michael Hawkins, is the fast track to deeper meditation experiences, and it comes without the risk of taking a psychedelic. So, if you live in Boulder, then consider sitting with Michael in meditation on a regular basis. And/or, consider coming to the GWV summer retreat in the Gila Wilderness next month, where you will find at least 4 or more genuine mystics to meditate with several times a day for as much as 2 weeks.

[Helen Elkinson]

Hello Jeffrey and Michael,

I have done two shroom trips now a week apart, and both took me to a very high level of energy, I would say this must have been viriya, which in the first trip became so intense as to be uncomfortable, no colors or hallucinations, just hyper sensitivity, which seemed to peak into mild yet annoying paranoia, which only subsided with time and food.

The second trip also became intense, but before it began to get uncomfortable, which I sensed, I smoked a pinch of marijuana which relieved the uncomfortable intensity of the energy which then turned into hallucinations. I felt my pain body, the chronic pain, which turned into a serpent, my body began to wryth twist and I shouted and yelled and hissed, my tongue was like a snake tongue (I am afraid of snakes so this was not pleasant), in that moment I felt this was some sort of evil spirit which was perhaps unconsciously present in my body which I could then see, my hands turned into energy daggers and I stabbed at all areas of my body, trying to kill it. Well, I later realized that this must have been kundalini and the door way to the forth or maybe fifth Jhana, and that my attempt to resist and kill what seemed like a foreign spirit inside of me, was maybe my ego-self resisting the transformation. Anyways, as this all settled I most certainly settled into the third jhana, in a contented peacefulness, with a blown open third eye.

Now while this most certainly was dramatic, and perhaps more deeply felt and existential than anything I have experienced before, I do reach the second jhana on a daily basis through meditation, and on occasion enter the third, I know what they feel like, so with my two experiences with mushrooms, I would say they do the same thing. Raise energy into absorption.

However, I don't think I went all that deep, and was very tempted, after settling into the third, to take some more mushroom tea and see where that took me, I felt that would probably have been interesting, but unfortunately it was late, and I had to eat.

I will endeavor to try one more trip, but will meditate as deeply as I can before hand, to at least 2nd Jhana. I dont know why the mushrooms simply give me energy, and none of the usual visual 'trippy' accoutrements associated with the experience (the mushrooms were cubensis). Or why it took a pinch of weed to set it off...

Any thoughts about this?

With regards,
Helen

[Michael Hawkins]

Hello Helen,

I am just returning from the GWV meditation retreat deep inside the Gila National Forest in New Mexico. Jeffrey remained when we left the campsite late last week, with plans to investigate other potential sites for future events -- possibly in the White Mountains of northern Arizona. The retreat, despite daily monsoon rains and a lack of running water, was a wonderful experience -- I hope you may be able to attend at some point down the line.

I don't have much to say about your report, other than to confirm that as I became more anchored in jhanas 1-4 (sometime around when I took yogi vows in February 2005, I would guess), I've not been able to "get off" on psychedelics -- other than, perhaps, a rise in sacred energy, as you've noticed in your own experimentation. There is something about the saturation process -- moving in and out of absorption over long periods of time -- that (I would imagine) changes the human neural system -- as though the pleasure centers are switched "on" and never turned fully off. Now, all I have to do is move my attention to pleasant sensations (usually in the third eye area for me, but I know it's different for others), and I'm right there in 2nd jhana, needing only to sit for a bit before 3rd jhana (and beyond) arises.

I did talk with Jeffrey about the fact that so many of his case study subjects were drug users at some point along the way, and he agreed with me that we have all (unconsciously) sought access to our body/mind's natural potential for giving rise to bliss, joy and ecstasy -- and that this pursuit, in our cases, ended up manifesting in the jhana nimittas (signs of absorption) -- and we were lucky enough to find support and instruction through Jeffrey's efforts on the Web.

In any case, I commend you for seeking inner answers to the pain that your body endures, and for your willingness to share your findings. I am happy to know that you are experiencing meditation breakthroughs -- this, to me, is the greatest news we can receive here. Please keep up the good work!

Warmly,
Michael

[jhananda]

Hello, Helen, I am so very glad that you are stilling your mind, which is the defining quality of the second jhana. If you do this every day in meditation, then your meditations will gradually deepen. If you spend more time in meditation and you sit more often, then you will find your progress will be considerable, and both Michael and I have experienced.

Yes, psychedelics can lead to some very interesting experiences, and both Michael and I know from experience; however, I have found far greater spiritual experiences through leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life. So, keep up your contemplative life, and I am sure you will find greater fulfillment in it than any psychedelic experience can offer.

As you know I too experience chronic pain. I found pain is a great teacher in the contemplative life.

[Helen Elkinson]

Thank you both Michael and Jeffrey for your feedback. A friend suggested that my occasional small does of tranq.'s for sleep may have been an interaction with the shrooms preventing a real trip; and so I have stopped them for a week now, feel better; but if they are interacting with the energy produced with shrooms, could my energy during meditation also be being stagnated at the deeper levels? I am reaching 2nd jhana every day, and sometimes 3rd, but they are not 'robust' meditation experiences, more subtle subdued...

btw, I found it interesting Michael that you mention that you do not associate the experience with psychedelics with the experience of Jhana, but I have found the energy I got from shrooms was very similar to the energy I receive from meditation. Also if I use weed now and then, I do most definitely enter Jhana spontaneously, as though numbing the body automatically taps into my energy field, and Jhana states of mind. But I agree while I feel better on weed, the Jhana which arises spontaneously through meditation is of a very different quality.

With regards,
Helen

(Sorry I realize there is not much to comment on there, but I none the less wanted to make those observations, I wonder if there are others who may have similar sorts of experiences who would like to comment).

[jhananda]

Sept 7, 2012 15:25:05 GMT -5 @Helen Elkinson said:

Thank you both Michael and Jeffrey for your feedback. A friend suggested that my occasional small does of tranq.'s for sleep may have been an interaction with the shrooms preventing a real trip; and so I have stopped them for a week now, feel better; but if they are interacting with the energy produced with shrooms, could my energy during meditation also be being stagnated at the deeper levels? I am reaching 2nd jhana every day, and sometimes 3rd, but they are not 'robust' meditation experiences, more subtle subdued...

It has been my experience, and my case histories support it, that psychoactive drugs undermine the religious experience, so I recommend avoiding psychoactive drugs, if at all possible. The benefit in doing so is deeper, and richer religious experiences, but it can require passing through some serious spiritual crises on the way.

Sept 7, 2012 15:25:05 GMT -5 @Helen Elkinson said:

btw, I found it interesting Michael that you mention that you do not associate the experience with psychedelics with the experience of Jhana, but I have found the energy I got from shrooms was very similar to the energy I receive from meditation. Also if I use weed now and then, I do most definitely enter Jhana spontaneously, as though numbing the body automatically taps into my energy field, and Jhana states of mind. But I agree while I feel better on weed, the Jhana which arises spontaneously through meditation is of a very different quality.

With regards,
Helen

For me, it is not so much that the religious experience is not unlike the psychedelic experience, but that religious experience is far richer and more rewarding than any psychedelic experience I every had; and I believe that is what Michael was saying.