Meditation practice that produces jhana

[jhananda]

A Practice Regimen (Magga) That Can Lead To Enlightenment (Phala) In This Very Lifetime

The Degree of “Grip” upon the Meditation Object

Posture for the Skillful Practice of Meditation

[jhananda]

Full Moon Rise
Full moon meditation

[theunbindr]

Good, now you know what is magga and what is phala. I believe you have gained more understanding recently.

[theunbindr]

Let these three words be our reminder, our guide in understanding and practicing samma-samadhi:
Discernment, Disenchantment, Cessation.

[jhananda]

samma-samadhi is not a practice it is an attainment, and the product of learning skillful meditation

[theunbindr]

In some suttas (e.g. MN-19, AN-7.70) the Buddha said to the monks: "Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." But you say it is not a practice. Clearly you are deluded.

[jhananda]

Check your translation, because jhana and samadhi are phala, which means "fruit" or "attainment." They do not mean practice "magga."

[theunbindr]

SN 45.8 :
Katamo ca bhikkhave, sammasamadhi: idha bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kamehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkam savicaram vivekajam pitisukham pathamam jhanam upasampajja viharati. Vitakkavicaranam vupasama ajjhattam sampasadanam cetaso ekodibhavam avitakkam avicaram samadhijam pitisukham dutiyam jhanam upasampajja viharati. Pitiya ca viraga upekhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajano sukhañca kayena patisamvedeti. Yantam ariya acikkhanti upekhako satima sukhavihariti tam tatiyam jhanam upasampajja viharati. Sukhassa ca pahana dukkhassa ca pahana pubbeva somanassadomanassanam atthagama adukkham asukham upekhasatiparisuddhim catuttham jhanam upasampajja viharati. Ayam vuccati bhikkhave, sammasamadhiti.

From that passage, anyone with sanity will understand samma-samadhi as the steps of what to do, what to be done to attain jhanas. The steps are the way leading to jhana. One needs to practice the way in order to reach jhana, therefore it is a practice.
If you say samadhi is phala, so what is the way to reach it? You should not translate the suttas only words by words without considering the context.

Phala(fruits) are benefits, and Goal is another thing. You should notice the difference between them. Benefit does NOT always be a goal, but goal always be beneficial. It seems that you are "fruits" oriented rather than "Goal" oriented. Don't you realize that? Think about it!.

[jhananda]

I just returned from retreat. You have posted another sutta. And, here, "theunbindr," I thought you would show us where in MN-19 or AN-7.70 the term "practice" appears. Do you practice meditation? How often? When do you go on retreat? Perhaps some day, if you learn to practice meditation skillfully enough you may indeed become unbound. For now, it seems, you are bound to poor translations of the suttas.

[theunbindr]

Good, you have responded healthily by asking more explanation. Healthily is how you should have responded to any comments, including my comments on your youtube videos (deleting them only proves that you couldn't defend your arguments).

MN-19 the last paragraph: Etani bhikkhave rukkhamulani, etani sunnagarani. Jhayatha bhikkhave, ma pamadattha, ma paccha vippatisarino ahuvattha.
Translation: Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret.
The word "Jhayatha" based on the word 'jhayati' which means "meditate, contemplate". The 'tha' suffix denotes it as imperative word.

The noble eightfold path is mentioned in the 2nd paragraph from the end of the sutta. Among the 8 paths mentioned there, which one do you think it is the closest to do with the roots of trees and empty dwellings. It is samma-samadhi. And from the samma-samadhi description we know that it is a meditation which lead to jhanas. So, it's ok for the translator to translate "Jhayatha" as "Practice jhana". I don't see anything wrong with it.

I wonder why the word "practice" here seems to sound so problematic for you. I think it is because you are too rigid in translating the suttas - you are bound to looking for each word's translation without trying to understand the meaning of the whole message. "To meditate" has the same meaning with "to practice meditation". There's nothing wrong with the word "practice" here. It's just a matter of language which is bit different. It's fine as long as they deliver the same meaning.

From analyzing your translations, I found the indication that you translated the suttas only partially - you were only interested in the parts which can be used to support your opinion. That's why you failed to understand the whole meaning of a particular topic. You shouldn't be proud of your meditation practice if it is not based on the right understanding. Your fruits-oriented attitude is an enough proof. I told you earlier to do your pariyati seriously first before practicing. I suggest you to read a sutta in a whole (not only partially) and also read other suttas to find the consistencies - to backup your understanding.

I have showed the corresponding pali passage and the translation. Why don't you also show the pali passage and its translation which support your opinion that samadhi is phala?

ps: I used the pali dictionary from this link: www.archive.org/details/palitextsocietys00pali

[jhananda]

Nov 10, 2011 0:43:22 GMT -5 @theunbindr said:

MN-19 the last paragraph: Etani bhikkhave rukkhamulani, etani sunnagarani. Jhayatha bhikkhave, ma pamadattha, ma paccha vippatisarino ahuvattha.
Translation: Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret.
The word "Jhayatha" based on the word 'jhayati' which means "meditate, contemplate". The 'tha' suffix denotes it as imperative word.

So, there is nothing in that quote that specifically says "Practice jhana." It is simply added by the translators. This suggests that the translators does not understand that jhana, samadhi, etc. are attainments (phala). If you want to understand attainment (phala), then read DN-2, it is all about attainments (phala). Attainment is also defined in MN-119.

My argument, is almost none of the translations of the Discourses of the Buddha today understand the difference between attainment (phala) and practice (magga). Since the 8th fold is defined by Siddhartha Gautama in terms of samadhi, and he defines attainment (phala) as jhana, samadhi, etc., then the 8th fold is therefore all about attainment (phala). This means the first 7 folds are about practice. The 8th fold is all about attainment (phala), which practice leads to, and that is my central premise that skillful practice (magga) leads to attainment (phala).

You failed to answer my questions. So, do you practice meditation? How often? When do you go on retreat?

[theunbindr]

Nov 10, 2011 7:15:36 GMT -5 jhananda said:

So, there is nothing in that quote that specifically says "Practice jhana." It is simply added by the translators. This suggests that the translators does not understand that jhana, samadhi, etc. are attainments (phala). If you want to understand attainment (phala), then read DN-2, it is all about attainments (phala). Attainment is also defined in MN-119.

It seems that you skipped some of my explanation. Of course, even until you die you will never find the pali words for "Practice jhana" in the sutta. The translator used the words to be more specific yet simple. If he used: "meditate!, monks", people may question: "meditate what?", "what kind of meditation?". It turns out it's you who translate poorly, you translate word by word without examining the meaning of the message. To summarize my explanation:
"Jhayatha" = "Meditate!"
        = "Practice meditation!"
        = "Practice sama-samadhi!"
        = "Practice samadhi which leads to jhana!"
        = "Practice (samadhi to attain) jhana!"
        = "Practice jhana!"
In the context of the Buddha's Teaching, there is no distortion of the meaning of the message. NO distortion, that's the important thing to remember.

Talking about 'phala', the word 'kamma' is more common to be paired with 'phala'. Kamma - phala, cause and effect. First you need to understand kamma-phala before anything else. Do not think that all phala is good. The only obvious phala you've got so far is the phala from disparaging Buddhist/meditation teachers, i.e you are excluded from Buddhist communities for many years up to now.
So, stop disparaging them, will you? It's not good for you - it's akusala kamma, and akusala kamma results to bad phala.

DN-2 is NOT all about phala. Read again the sutta from the beginning. The Buddha mentioned wrong views before talking about phala of contemplative life.

My argument, is almost none of the translations of the Discourses of the Buddha today understand the difference between attainment (phala) and practice (magga). Since the 8th fold is defined by Siddhartha Gautama in terms of samadhi, and he defines attainment (phala) as jhana, samadhi, etc., then the 8th fold is therefore all about attainment (phala). This means the first 7 folds are about practice. The 8th fold is all about attainment (phala), which practice leads to, and that is my central premise that skillful practice (magga) leads to attainment (phala).

Which one is magga and which one is phala, is not that important. The most important thing is you understand all the 8 paths, especially samma-ditthi (Right Views) and samma-samadhi (Right Samadhi).

I told you, you are phala-oriented instead of Goal-oriented. You don't understand jhana yet you disparage Buddhist monks/teachers. For you jhana is all about the ecstasies - that's all you know. You never mentioned anything about cessation, which is the key point for understanding jhana in Buddhist context.

Look again the pali words for "noble 8-fold path", it is "ariya atthangika magga". It is NOT "noble 7-fold path" or "ariya sattangika magga". The last time I checkmated you in your jhana claim on your youtube video comments. It is another CHECKMATE for you in your magga-phala argumentation.
From 8 you reduced it to 7, it is a very obvious distortion of the teaching. And it is so pathetic you distort something that is already clear by itself (by its name). And of course you don't realize it since you are too deluded to see it. Think about that!.

IMO, you are similar to the governor Rick Perry. He forgot the departments he wants to eliminate. The more he opens his mouth, the more he makes mistakes. (btw, I'm not interested in politics, I only enjoy the funny things from it). See what people say about him. You have given the same impression.

You failed to answer my questions. So, do you practice meditation? How often? When do you go on retreat?

I have presented the pali passage and more than clear enough explanation of the translation. How can you say I failed to answer your question? It is now your turn to show us your pali passage. Where is it? Failed to argue, you divert to another topic. Don't do that, DO NOT run away!

I'm not interested to share anything about my practice to you. I think it will only give you more doubt and/or envy. There is no point, so, just forget it.