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Post by josh bishop on Feb 20, 2012 18:42:58 GMT -5
I will agree, however, that both communities have been marginalized by mainstream religion and political structures back into pre-history. Investigating the reasons for that could make for a very interesting subject of discussion,
Yes I agree, i wouldn't know how to approach this other than the argument I recently heard from McKenna, as he discusses the drying up of the African jungles which pressured the tree dwelling primates to begin foraging for food on the grass lands, whereby there was the gradual introduction of psilocybin into the primates diet through foraging, increasing visual acuity, then later sexual stimuli, the recession of the male dominator as force of control and possession, increasing population, orgies and the loss of need for monogomy into sexual poly-morphism, and what he states as the major turning point in consciousness being connected to the introduction of the 'plow' - a literal division between conscious and unconscious awareness was introduced through agriculture and the move away from the hunter gather societies prior to that. Increased crop and agriculture introduced competion, defensiveness, and so on...He goes on to say how at a later stage larger quantities of psilocybin were introduced which induced entry into spiritual domains which I guess would have been the birth of shaminism....
Not to clear but thats the general idea, he says it all more eloquently, but what is your idea jeffrey or any others who might want to contribute?
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Post by jhananda on Feb 21, 2012 8:14:25 GMT -5
Well, as far as I know pycilisyb species are only new world. If that is true then it blows McKenna's hypothesis all to peaces. And, Terance McKenna has a PhD in anthropology? Well, he was Castaneda's adviser, which only says he was clueless, because Castaneda was writing fiction.
Also, the marginalizing of mystics surely does not go back to primate evolution, nor does the taking of psychedelics by primates need to explain hominid evolution. The marginalizing of mystics is most probably post-civilization, and it speaks of the shaman/mystic coming into conflict with the priests, who are not shaman/mystics.
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Post by Thomas on Feb 21, 2012 13:43:53 GMT -5
I think it is wrong what Castaneda did. The fact is that, due to the War on Drugs, we have very little useful information to go on when it comes to psychedelics. In school, they tell you enough lies and propaganda to utterly destroy their own credibility. So even when they do tell you the truth, you're not inclined to believe it. Now, back in my tripping days (think mid-to-late 90s), we didn't have any resources like Erowid, so most of my knowledge of drugs came from personal experience, urban legend, and books like Castaneda's. So you can see how, in this context, such disinformation as Castaneda produced can be quite harmful.
His books led me to expect things from drugs that they just couldn't deliver. More than that, they reinforced the idea, contributed to by other cultural sources, that tripping was somehow good for you - kinda like eating your vegetables.
Furthermore, his books unfairly occupy a place in popular culture that would be more rightly held by genuine narratives of indigenous psychedelic use. The fact is that religious psychedelic use is an ages-old tradition, and I would have been far better off reading about the Huichols (who, unlike the Yaqui, actually use peyote) or any of the Peruvian ayahuasca traditions. Instead, I wasted my time with this dude's fantasy novels.
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Post by josh bishop on Feb 21, 2012 16:56:33 GMT -5
Well I dont know, here's a link to his own description of what i attempted to describe above: www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZY1L3QLd9s&feature=relatedHe argues that 1-1.5 million years ago when the tropical forests of Africa became more arid, the 'aborial primates' (monkeys) began to descend from the trees to begin foraging in the grasslands...thats the start... What do you mean by new world jeffrey? I don't think he got past a couple of bachelor degrees, and have never heard that he was Castaneda's adviser....interesting to hear though. Also, the marginalizing of mystics surely does not go back to primate evolution, nor does the taking of psychedelics by primates need to explain hominid evolution. The marginalizing of mystics is most probably post-civilization, and it speaks of the shaman/mystic coming into conflict with the priests, who are not shaman/mystics.Can you elaborate on these point Jeffrey, yes it would seem to me that mystics are catalysts for change within very particular cultural, post-civilization, contexts, but i'm out of my league here with establishing what our argument is for this discussion...
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Post by jhananda on Feb 22, 2012 12:07:21 GMT -5
I agree Thomas, you make some very good points. There is just so very much fiction on both side of the issue that it is difficult to sort the facts from fiction.
Yes, Bishop, the premise that arborial primates "came down from the trees and spread out on the savannahs of Africa; however, they would not have found psylicib mushroom species, because they are from the new world, which means the Americas, and not from Africa.
Also, I have spent some time harvesting edible wild mushrooms, and sun drying them for later use. I found that I could leave them out for days of drying because no creature would eat them. So, I have had to conclude that there are very few species that can eat mushrooms. So, primates may not be able to eat them.
So, we cannot argue that consuming psylicib mushroom species had anything at all to do with homid evolution. Although we could argue that consuming various mind altering drugs might have been at the root of the earliest religions. But, I need to qualify that statement by saying that I have found profound religious experiences without the use of drugs through the practice of meditation, so consuming mind altering drugs need not be the only source of religion.
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Post by Josh on Feb 22, 2012 17:21:19 GMT -5
I started with a kundalini awakening when i was still quite young, I had never meditated (consciously), and never taken any kind of drugs. I estimate I was in the 4thh Jhana for about two months, over which time it very slowly came down. I learned meditation after that, i've never even tried psychedelics, but feel I should to compare that with what i have achieved through meditation, and find out what is it that people find there? Anyways, i would think that the earliest primates would already be in higher states of awareness, being able to sustain those states through factors that are no longer present in our current civilization. Perhaps then McKenna's point about the shift to agrarian societies and 'the invention of the plow cutting through the surface of the earth', the earth which was only ever a surface under them, and under their feet, splitting the unconscious and conscious into a dualism, creating divisions between ownership, systems of defense, boundaries which never before existed, gradually infecting the birth of civilization?
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Post by Josh on Feb 22, 2012 17:31:41 GMT -5
Also I have read that all 'drugs' are already contained in the body, even substances such as DMT; we no longer live in the complex eco-systems which would have required the heightened awareness of ecstatic states, states which we were born into, without thought. Is the energy and ecstatic states associated with mystics connected to the body metabolizing chemical synthesis in the body, in addition to a connection to a deeper life force?
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Post by jhananda on Feb 23, 2012 8:21:31 GMT -5
Perhaps then McKenna's point about the shift to agrarian societies and 'the invention of the plow cutting through the surface of the earth', the earth which was only ever a surface under them, and under their feet, splitting the unconscious and conscious into a dualism, creating divisions between ownership, systems of defense, boundaries which never before existed, gradually infecting the birth of civilization? The more I hear from Terrance McKenna the less I find agreement with. After all he was Castaneda's adviser at Berkeley, so what can I say?
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Post by Thomas on Feb 23, 2012 9:54:19 GMT -5
Don't say anything.
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Post by josh bishop on Feb 23, 2012 18:36:10 GMT -5
Well I'm just exploring these other people, and please feel free to talk about whatever, I'm in complete ignorance about anhropology, but hearing you say that McKenna's 'stoned ape theory' has little evidence of support, makes me see what a spin doctor he was - to some degree. He does have good and interesting insights that perhaps you see quite differently Jeffrey, but its all new territory to me, so please feel free to direct the discussion in any direction.
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Post by jhananda on Feb 24, 2012 8:56:33 GMT -5
McKenna's 'stoned ape theory' would have better support if he could show apes today consume mind altering drugs. I suppose there are some in areas near large apes in Africa, but we would have to see them consuming these drugs.
It is known that quite a few animals will consume foods that seem to cause them to become intoxicated. For instance wild elephants have been observed consuming fermented fruit and exhibiting intoxicated behavior.
Several bird species in my region (southern AZ, USA) will consume Pyracantha berries and become intoxicated. They seem to like being intoxicated because they will do it all day long.
However, elephants and birds have not developed an opposable thumb, or exhibited tool making. They just get drunk and stagger off to enjoy the high, so arguing that primates taking mind-altering drugs had any influence on evolution has little support.
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Post by Thomas on Feb 24, 2012 20:23:38 GMT -5
Jeffrey, this may be off topic, and my apologies for asking a personal question regarding your experience, but there is alot of talk about people who take DMT, LSD, Psilosybin, who then encounter other beings who appear to communicate with them. Are there parallels, for example, between a particular Jhanic state and that experienced through DMT? It seems that DMT has been labeled the most powerful, and most who take a high dose report coming into contact with spiritual beings who have things to tell them.
Is there a parallel to the Jhanic states?
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Post by jhananda on Feb 25, 2012 9:00:46 GMT -5
Hello Thomas, I took a lot of psychedelics in my youth. During those many trips, I encountered many fantastic beings in the spiritual dimensions. I was always disappointed when the trip was over, because the bliss, joy and ecstasy that I experienced during the trip came to an end. I have taken just about every psychedelic made. I found the glandular secretions from a local toad is the most powerful and cleanest psychedelic around. However, when I took up a contemplative life I found deeper bliss, joy and ecstasy in every day life, than I ever experienced on psychedelics.
So, yes, there is a parallel to the spiritual experience in the consumption of psychedelics. It is a little like the difference between a garbage truck and a Rolls Royce. Both are conveyances. Given a choice I would ride in the Rolls Royce, unless I was hauling garbage.
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Post by Josh on Feb 26, 2012 18:46:45 GMT -5
Jeffrey, can LSD or pycilisyb lead to the relief of chronic muscular pain through releasing deep seated, phyco-somatic type neurosis that may not be accessible in other ways? I have been meditating a long time but still have persistent deep muscle tension that I believe may be related to past trauma perhaps.
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Post by jhananda on Feb 27, 2012 8:16:45 GMT -5
I have not found LSD, or any other psychedelic to relieve any of my joint or muscle pain. If anything the toxins in those drugs tends to produce a great deal of muscle and join pain the day following a trip. I would recommend leading a healthy lifestyle, plus moderate exercise and daily stretching helped me a great deal.
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