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Post by josh bishop on Sept 22, 2011 16:16:52 GMT -5
Hello Jeffrey,
This is a first post for me, and I wanted to ask a question about the distinction and how to overcome both our Conscious and Unconscious fear of death. I find that I can 'think' about death, and more or less understand what it 'means'. But after awaking suddenly in the middle of the night, I have become aware that my Conscious fear of death is not the same as my Unconscious fear of death. Upon awaking I felt genuine fear of death, because I felt that fear in a 'bodily' way, my body was tense, and my conscious mind was afraid of the singles that my body was sending. I am also wondering on a deeper level if on this Unconscious level, the body is trying to tell me that it 'is' afraid, and has not accepted that it will die, and by producing chronic pain, it is trying to 'resist' this fear. I know this may sound strange, and perhaps there is a better way of looking at this, but what I see during these middle of night episodes is that my mind cannot access this level of 'unconscious' fear by simply telling my body to just relax and forget about it, the body is afraid and is telling my conscious mind, like a child to a parent. Hope this is more or less clear. Thanks for any suggestions you may have, Josh
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Post by jhananda on Sept 23, 2011 7:55:42 GMT -5
Hello Josh, and thank-you for posting your inquiry into the fear of death, both conscious and unconscious. After I first began to experience out-of-body experiences when I was 21 I realized that life is just preparation for death. Traveling out-of-body I realized that we spend more time out-of-body than we do in a body; however, those who do not travel out-of-body do not understand that, and tend to become identified with the body.
The daily practice of meditation is one of the many ways how we prepare ourselves for life without a body. And, through leading a contemplative life we are likely to encounter our deep fears. Awareness of those deep fears often propels us into a spiritual crisis. That spiritual crisis is intended to help deepen our contemplative life and deepen our commitment to leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life.
I look forward to reading Michale's contribution to this most interesting inquiry, if he has the time and inclination to share it with us.
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Post by Michael Hawkins on Sept 23, 2011 17:14:10 GMT -5
Hello Josh, and thanks for your interesting question. Thanks to Jeffrey for offering advice.
My answer is that, through a dedicated daily practice, preferably sitting an hour or more first thing in the morning, another hour or more midday, and then entering into contemplation while approaching the sleep domain, we gradually become saturated in meditative absorption. Having established ourselves in 24/7 bliss, joy and ecstasy, our entire outlook on life changes -- and one of these changes is to realize that one's fear of death whittles away.
How do we test our present level of fear toward death?
I mean, it's not something we can speculate about; we have to actually be faced with the prospect of eminent death in order to realize how we'll react.
About a month ago, my wife Karen and I were driving a dirt road in southern Colorado, going about our business without a care in the world. At a crossroads, however, the road we were traveling was blocked by a wire fence and large boulders, with several "No Trespassing" sign posted. This was a public dirt road that we were driving. I saw a house there on the corner and turned our car onto the crossroad, thinking I would talk with whomever lived there to see if he or she knew what was going on.
Out of the trees raged a wild-haired man waving a rifle and screaming, "Do not get out of the car!!!!" My wife didn't hear him say that, so she opened the passenger door and stood on the road. She loudly asked him why he was blocking the road -- so, he leveled the rifle at us and threatened to kill us on the spot -- and, if we were ever to come around there again, we were to consider ourselves dead persons. I managed to get Karen back in the car, we backed up and drove away in the opposite direction. The wild-haired rifleman had gotten to about 50 feet from our car, which (we later learned) was plenty close if he'd decided to open fire -- which is to say, we could well have bitten the dust right then and there.
[The rest is a long story, but, yes, we called the Sheriff and the rifleman was arrested, later charged with felony menacing and illegal use of a firearm. He was apparently very drunk and crying when the officers got there an hour after this incident. He is in big trouble.]
Throughout this experience, I was struck at how calm I was. The whole thing unfolded as though in slow motion, with absolute peace and clarity swirling inside and out -- and at no point did I experience fear or anxiety. Afterward, when we were out of gunshot range, when one would expect to "fall apart," this same deep sense of peace and well-being persisted -- just as it seems always to be present, having been with me for many years now.
I was thankful at that time -- even thankful to the rifleman -- for giving me a chance to test my relationship with death. What Jeffrey has been teaching, and what I've been experiencing during the years since become jhana-active, has truly born fruit -- and I can speak from direct experience in saying that a committed contemplative life does lead to the sort of inner peace and certitude that dissolves our human fear of death.
So, Josh, there's no instant solution -- but I can say that, if you give yourself to a vigorous and skillful daily meditation/study practice, these things will take care of themselves over time -- and you will subtly begin to know it as the weeks and months go by.
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Post by jhananda on Sept 24, 2011 8:01:03 GMT -5
Thank-you Michael for sharing your most interesting story. Congratulations, you have found one more fruit of the contemplative life, which is fearlessness (nibbhaya; abhiiruka; nissaarajja; abhiita), the second of the 10 fruit of the contemplative life.
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Post by josh on Oct 10, 2011 2:09:58 GMT -5
Thanks very much for those replys, I will try to post again soon. Josh
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Post by theunbinder on Oct 10, 2011 19:49:48 GMT -5
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Post by Josh on Nov 28, 2011 18:53:46 GMT -5
Hi Jeffrey,
I'm often pulled in many directions when it comes to dealing with other people, I'm not really a 'people person', finding it difficult to really meaningfully relate to others, or really feel that I understand others and their needs. Or what is more often the case, of how not to be misperceived as one thing, when all I really want to communicate is that I am a contemplative.
Is there really always an ulterior motive to any form of communication between people, as Ekahardt-Tolle says? And while I would agree there is, how can we discover what those motives are in life, or the motives of others?
I often think to myself while talking to people, whatever the subject may be, 'what are we talking about', 'how is what they are telling me an expression of their unhappiness, discomfort, dis-ease with life'?
I feel that everything here on this forum is more or less like a 'check-list' and support group for how to deal with all issue surrounding the transformation from a dis-eased life and life style, to that of a contemplative, and one who is on a path that will lead to enlightenment, and the fulfillment of a genuine mystic. Oddly, so few people are interested in this as a subject worthy of discussion. Is it then also appropriate to make a distinction between those who are 'deluded' and those who are free from delusion? (It does sound a bit arrogant being that this would mean 99.9% of people are deluded...)
As a contemplative, and one who practices according to a Buddhist belief/educational system, must we assume that it is the purpose of all people to want or need to move towards some form of self realization, without any other purpose than to become free of anxiety and suffering? And so with whoever I am speaking, there are indeed certain assumptions that fall into place, and it would seem there is a far greater limit placed on the range of possible discussion issues?
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Post by jhananda on Nov 29, 2011 8:40:51 GMT -5
Hi Jeffrey, I'm often pulled in many directions when it comes to dealing with other people, I'm not really a 'people person', finding it difficult to really meaningfully relate to others, or really feel that I understand others and their needs. Or what is more often the case, of how not to be misperceived as one thing, when all I really want to communicate is that I am a contemplative. Hello again Josh, contemplatives tend to keep to themselves, for a variety of reasons, but mostly for personal peace and tranquility. Is there really always an ulterior motive to any form of communication between people, as Ekahardt-Tolle says? And while I would agree there is, how can we discover what those motives are in life, or the motives of others? Most people are not self-aware, so they generally do not understand their own motives. So it is possible that in most case there is an ulterior motive in any form of human communication. I often think to myself while talking to people, whatever the subject may be, 'what are we talking about', 'how is what they are telling me an expression of their unhappiness, discomfort, dis-ease with life'? This seems like a good application of self-awareness. I feel that everything here on this forum is more or less like a 'check-list' and support group for how to deal with all issue surrounding the transformation from a dis-eased life and life style, to that of a contemplative, and one who is on a path that will lead to enlightenment, and the fulfillment of a genuine mystic. I am glad you found this group useful as a support group for you as a mystic, because that is our goal. Oddly, so few people are interested in this as a subject worthy of discussion. Yes, sadly, few people are interested in leading a contemplative life Is it then also appropriate to make a distinction between those who are 'deluded' and those who are free from delusion? (It does sound a bit arrogant being that this would mean 99.9% of people are deluded...) Yes, I believe every contemplative should at least understand what he or she is dealing with, when dealing with people. It is not arrogant to do so, it is just all about being self-aware. It would; however, be arrogant, to dismiss others, just because they are not yet contemplatives, or to feel superior to others for one's practices or attainments. However, the fact that few people understand that the contemplative life is the holy life, then we can conclude that at least 99.9% of the human population is deluded. As a contemplative, and one who practices according to a Buddhist belief/educational system, must we assume that it is the purpose of all people to want or need to move towards some form of self realization, without any other purpose than to become free of anxiety and suffering? And so with whoever I am speaking, there are indeed certain assumptions that fall into place, and it would seem there is a far greater limit placed on the range of possible discussion issues? Underneath all of the neurotic and obsessive and compulsive behavior of 99.9% of the human population is most certainly a pursuit of relieving their anxiety; however, most people are looking in all of the wrong places and doing all of the wrong things to relieve that suffering, if they are not leading a rigorous, self-aware, contemplative life.
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Post by Josh on Dec 3, 2011 13:38:00 GMT -5
thanks jeffrey, thats much appreciated! I feel like I want to make it known to others, friends, family, collegues, etc, that i am a contemplative, and that its not just about my 'spiritual views'. I realize that I cannot just put a blurb on facebook about this, because to little just sound empty and pretentious, and too much doesn't make sense to anyone.
So I think that it would be best to make a website, with links to my other professional work, rather than trying to mix them together. People get turned off and aggressive very quickly when they see you talking about spirituality, you also get pigeonholed and stereotyped and inevitably misunderstood, which only tarnishes the professional work which is, well, just some useless activity I do to make a living.
Jeffrey could you recommend how one might make a website, what the aim should be and how to design it so it is not just a rip off of someone else's idea or work. I suppose I feel a need to document my own experience, and share that with others. What else it may include i'm not sure, but i agree with the principles of your own work, that there needs to be foundation texts taken from mystics, with all their translation issues taken into consideration, and some form of consensus brought to bear on those texts about what they mean through conducting case studies etc.
Thanks for any suggestions you may have.
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Post by jhananda on Dec 4, 2011 9:41:35 GMT -5
Hello, Josh, you might try starting with a blog, as Michael did.
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Post by Josh on Dec 5, 2011 9:03:34 GMT -5
thanks jeffrey,
i guess what i want to ask, is how did building a public site, the GWV, help to define your mission, and build your practice?
I suppose what I am looking for is a form of recognition, validation, and understanding from a community of peers of which I am, in whatever small way, a part; with a further hope that this may, in whatever way, become a sort of foundation for further spiritual and communal growth.
I think there is a spiritual awareness out there amongst peers, but that it is rooted in drug culture; to the point that the 'evil' associated with drug use comes to be a sign of belonging to a particular 'group', strengthening friendships and mutual understanding in shared ecstatic experience, but an experience which cannot be bridged to larger communal movements because the abuse relies on secrecy - a cultist experience, local, and confined by the necessity of secrecy due to more powerful levels of organization within society - laws, governments - which keep the 'cult and threat' in check, and dependent.
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Post by jhananda on Dec 5, 2011 9:44:14 GMT -5
thanks jeffrey, i guess what i want to ask, is how did building a public site, the GWV, help to define your mission, and build your practice? Josh, it was not building a public forum that defined my mission. It was building my practice by leading a solo, rigorous, self-aware contemplative life that bore the fruit of spiritual attainment, which gave me the intuitive, revelatory insight that the priests of the religions of the world had been lying to us all for thousands of years, which then told me I needed to at least offer something that they could not offer, which was guidance from one who has attained, and building a community of others who have attainment. I suppose what I am looking for is a form of recognition, validation, and understanding from a community of peers of which I am, in whatever small way, a part; with a further hope that this may, in whatever way, become a sort of foundation for further spiritual and communal growth. Without validation, one cannot know which way to go without direct intuitive, revelatory insight. I think there is a spiritual awareness out there amongst peers, but that it is rooted in drug culture; to the point that the 'evil' associated with drug use comes to be a sign of belonging to a particular 'group', strengthening friendships and mutual understanding in shared ecstatic experience, but an experience which cannot be bridged to larger communal movements because the abuse relies on secrecy - a cultist experience, local, and confined by the necessity of secrecy due to more powerful levels of organization within society - laws, governments - which keep the 'cult and threat' in check, and dependent. Yes, there are spiritually awareness people who could come together as a peer group to support each other. That is what this forum is about, and the forums of the GWV are about. So, stay on, and help be a peer supporter for others to come.
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Post by Josh on Dec 8, 2011 16:39:56 GMT -5
Jeffrey, would you agree that seeking validation from others is a form of delusion? Why do we (I), feel that it is needed? It seems to me to be connected with a sense of purpose and place in the world; if everyone is out of their mind, is there anywhere that is sane? And once we have begun to taste sanity, if we can call it that, of the fruit of the contemplative life, I personally find myself moving away from all that which is given validation everywhere in society; I feel terrified by it, my family, friends, past teachers, there is no longer anyone to turn to, and thus a powerful feeling to not only reject and turn away from those that would keep people like myself 'down' so that they may 'proceed', reaping the wealth of affection and praise from a society gone mad, but a desire to no longer be affected by it all, perhaps even to make them wrong, or to at least see how totally corrupt and ridiculous their worlds have become.
But perhaps I am wrong to call it a desire, maybe it isn't really desire, but simply a deep inner need to find validation, a validation that is no longer dependent on anyone, or anything, not even myself. A kind of death I suppose.
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Post by jhananda on Dec 9, 2011 10:11:01 GMT -5
Jeffrey, would you agree that seeking validation from others is a form of delusion? Why do we (I), feel that it is needed? Josh, it depends upon whether our pursuit of validation is neurotic or not. Every student needs a who will give them instructions, then review the exams and offer validation for successes and corrections for errors. The problem is none of the meditation teachers who have become famous in the last 150 years had any idea whatsoever as what to look for in meditation, so everyone was misdirected, except those few who followed their intuitive, revelatory, insight. Of those who did, not one of them was validated, or empowered by any meditation teacher or priest. It seems to me to be connected with a sense of purpose and place in the world; if everyone is out of their mind, is there anywhere that is sane? And once we have begun to taste sanity, if we can call it that, of the fruit of the contemplative life, I personally find myself moving away from all that which is given validation everywhere in society; I feel terrified by it, my family, friends, past teachers, there is no longer anyone to turn to, and thus a powerful feeling to not only reject and turn away from those that would keep people like myself 'down' so that they may 'proceed', reaping the wealth of affection and praise from a society gone mad, but a desire to no longer be affected by it all, perhaps even to make them wrong, or to at least see how totally corrupt and ridiculous their worlds have become. Well, the truth is humans are not just totally insane, but driven by the seven deadly sins. So, why would one who sees through the total and complete corruption of society want to be in it? This is why most mystics retreat from the world and become recluses, like myself. However, I am not the only one who has seen through the vale of delusion. Michael Hawkins and yourself, and many more, but none of us are recognized, validated or empowered by any religion, which should be proof enough of the corruption of all of the religions. So, we can all join together to create a community where we will find peer support, and refuge from the insanity of the world. But perhaps I am wrong to call it a desire, maybe it isn't really desire, but simply a deep inner need to find validation, a validation that is no longer dependent on anyone, or anything, not even myself. A kind of death I suppose. Often times aspiration is misinterpreted as desire.
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Post by Josh on Dec 10, 2011 19:01:36 GMT -5
Thank you Jeffrey, those are good points I hadn't thought about as such: yes of course people are not really 'insane', but all driven by the seven sins, and the distinction between desire and aspiration seems such an essential distinction to make.
What do you think of Ramana Maharshi, what was his level of attainment?
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