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Post by josh bishop on Mar 1, 2012 15:12:37 GMT -5
I was just having a look at this site: www.emclear.com/No need to read it all, i'm sure there are hundreds like it, but one thing that he discusses that I have encountered frequently, is when taking weed, unless I have a directed stimulus - music, movie, friends, etc - I will often begin to focus on an unexpected emotion that seems quite literally to rise from the deep, from the 'emotional' storehouse of the unconscious, for example, the feeling that as much as I hate and resent so much of what my mother did, I still love her, and want to tell her that, my body and ever muscle goes into a literal convulsion of stress and release and crying that can go on and on. Perhaps on weeds this is a 'mild' bad trip? But in relation to the above therapist discusses, he talks about how we need to 'clear' emotional levels before entering clearly into the spiritual domains. Perhaps a moot point, but I have to say, that unless in an altered state, I generally don't find deep suppressed emotions welling up from nowhere like that, and what do you think Jeffrey, I think I mentioned before about reaching deep contemplative states, but still feeling a forlorn sense of unhappiness, an emotional discomfort, and most notably the sense that despite the rise in clarity of mind, the stilling of the mind, and energy in the body, my heart seems to remain closed. I wonder if I dont have emotional blocks around issues that perhaps I should find a way to address? I don't know what do you think about that Jeffrey? Josh
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Post by jhananda on Mar 2, 2012 8:35:48 GMT -5
Hello Josh, I too was severely abused as a child by my mother, who also involved my sisters in torturing me. So, I came to adulthood with a lot of excess baggage. I found drugs just brought up the garbage without providing me with the tools to deal with my emotional baggage, so I gave them up when I turned 21, and turned my life to a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life. Doing so allowed me to cultivate bliss, joy, fulfillment and equanimity, as a replacement for the emotional scars that I carried from my abused childhood.
Nonetheless, leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life will stimulate various spiritual crises, which St John of the Cross called "the dark night of the soul." At the worst of my dark night, which was a decade long, I entered into weekly therapy with a psychologist, who was also a contemplative. Now, he was nowhere near the contemplative I was, but he was older, more mature, and had psychological training and had traversed his own dark night of the soul, and childhood trauma. So, he was a good mentor.
My psychologist was in retirement when I got to him in 1990, and he kept my as a patient, because I was, let us say, unusual, so good research for him. He is now quite old and surely unavailable as a therapist. However, Michael Hawkins has the training, and happens to be a rigorous, self-aware contemplative, which is even better. So, I can recommend him as a mentor for a rigorous, self-aware contemplative to negotiate his spiritual crises.
If one cannot afford the investment in a good therapist, then I recommend just leading a rigorous, self-aware contemplative life, and a great deal of faith and fortitude that such a lifestyle will definitely heal the deepest psychological scars, because I have done it, and so can anyone else.
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Post by Josh on Mar 2, 2012 17:21:20 GMT -5
How do we identify scars? How do I know if there is emotional baggage that is impeding my life goals in some way? I can see unresolved problems that are emotionally charged, but I wonder how much would be healed even if I was able to 'resolve' them.
I suggested to my mother that we find a 'family' therapist, simply because the issues I have are family interrelated, and I think everyone is the same, what is required is some form of mutual understanding, a collective agreement on certain issues, which would be externally moderated bring coherence and conclusion to internal differences that seem to divide rather than holistically support one another.
I think it would be healthy for everyone as there would be an external perspective, instead of each family member's own rationalization of their particular role in the family.
Yes I think cost would be an issue, I dont have any idea about that, and the willingness of everyone to go ahead with this, what that would involve exactly.
I have seen two counselors in the past, over 15 years ago, cathartic i suppose, but ultimately of little lasting value. I feel the need for the whole family to be involved in this process.
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Post by jhananda on Mar 3, 2012 7:42:29 GMT -5
Hello Josh, I say leave the dead to bury the dead, and move on with your recovery on your own. Just psychology has proven it cannot heal the emotional scars, it can only medicate, and put band aides on. However, it can give a rigorous, self-aware contemplative some useful tools for being mindfully self-aware of one's neuroses, while one cultivates the 8 stages of the religious experience, which will heal those scars.
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Post by josh bishop on Mar 3, 2012 14:50:26 GMT -5
I assume the dead here means those who have yet to realize the holy life, and still lie in the grip of Mara: blind, deluded, addicted, neurotic, and generally with very little insight about their purpose in life.
I'm guessing the roots of all evil lie within those causes, forces which permeate and pollute our existence; lies, deception, with those who aspire to escape these forces becoming criminals, witches, a hypocrisy in its foulest and most corrosive form.
No matter how successful, well educated, 'intelligent', provocative, insightful, down to earth, someone may appear to be, it remains an appearance, something false, and without deep purpose.
The issue is about coming to the realization that the ecstatic altered states of consciousness associated with Jhana, lift us out of the world as we have been conditioned to 'believe' in (and all that that entails), and bring us into un-mediated contact with the divine, a revelatory state of awareness which without any effort at all, brings us to 'life' - an experience of life as birth right.
I understand what you mean that choosing a psychologist must include someone who is also a contemplative, or else there will be no progress, and since I know that no one else in my family intends to become a contemplative in any way, it would appear to be a lost cause, however, I still feel compassion for those people as well, which seems to me, to be not about feeling sorry for circumstances, or pity for those less 'fortunate' (a filthy lie, a term rooted in dualism), but a form of awareness that what is good and true about life, as it could be on this planet, will eventually come to manifest; a fact which can only be known by those who have experienced life as nothing more than a form of awareness.
Can we add anything more?
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Post by Josh on Mar 3, 2012 15:13:58 GMT -5
Just a commentary which also makes an interesting remark about social systems which have grown up around the 'dead'. "Leave the dead to bury the dead"This means that he should not worry about burying his dead relative, but to do the work that the Lord had commanded him to do and let his relatives or the villagers worry about burying his dead relative. The lord is saying that all will die eventually, hence "Let the dead bury the dead". Most commentaries suggest Jesus meant, "Leave the (spiritual) dead to bury the (physical) dead" (Fitzmyer 1981: 836; Liefeld 1984: 935). In addition to its biblical context stated above it is also used my Marx in The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte. Marx uses it in the context of the social revolution of the 19th century. He utilizes this biblical quote to emphasize the idea that the revolution must not rely on the social models of the past in order to derive its roots, but rather must reject all past illusions (such as religion or bureaucracy) and instead build itself in the present as a modern revolution that springs forth a new system that does posses the faults of past constructs. So in a sense Marx is calling upon the new revolution to remove itself from the historical patterns that have led to the reoccurring rise of the bourgeois. In this sense "let the dead bury the dead" means let the flawed bourgeois social systems die once and for all for their repetitive flaws (let the dead just die, do not keep resurrecting them in the present social system) (Marx 1852: 595) Read more: wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_meaning_of_'let_the_dead_bury_their_dead'#ixzz1o5QZKy93
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Post by jhananda on Mar 4, 2012 8:02:21 GMT -5
Thank-you Josh for posting your research into the use of the phrase, "Let the dead bury the dead." I agree with much of what you posted on this subject. I do not see how leaving the dead to bury the dead eliminates compassion for them, but acknowledges that they do not want us to do anything for them, nor are they willing to see that the very fabric of their existence is based upon a lie and they continue to be enmeshed in the lies, so there is nothing that we can do for them, except leave them in their lie all the while feeling compassion for them.
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Post by Josh on Mar 4, 2012 12:14:24 GMT -5
Yes, I feel a pang of hope when I hear you say that Jeffrey, and while I read and listen and watch so many others speak about similar matters, it only really seems to strike home when a friend, or someone you trust, confirms what we know instinctively.
I grew up having most of my instincts invalidated, causing an emasculation of (my) potential, diluted and polluted by the evils society has come to use as a kind of weapon to defend its own dysfunctional 'face'. I suppose this is what would be called 'hegemony', or frozen ideology?
I always read how we can't blame anyone for this, as irresistible as it feels, because it furthers our own delusion, or blindness that there is some 'cure' for what we have become.
Psychology must be one of the greatest delusions ever invented, but I do see what you mean Jeffrey that it can be a very good tool for furthering our contemplative journey, so long as it is understood as such, by making us more self-aware of the mechanisms of the matrix; the infinite permutations of matter and our ability to imaginatively spin webs which delimit the boundaries of our world; sustaining neurosis in all it forms and appearances.
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Post by jhananda on Mar 5, 2012 9:01:02 GMT -5
Yes, I feel a pang of hope when I hear you say that Jeffrey, and while I read and listen and watch so many others speak about similar matters, it only really seems to strike home when a friend, or someone you trust, confirms what we know instinctively. When we expose the lies that everyone functions under, then they want to kill us. Many mystics were martyred for this. Otherwise it is best to just keep the truth to oneself and share it with those who are willing to see through the lies to the mystery. I grew up having most of my instincts invalidated, causing an emasculation of (my) potential, diluted and polluted by the evils society has come to use as a kind of weapon to defend its own dysfunctional 'face'. I suppose this is what would be called 'hegemony', or frozen ideology? I always read how we can't blame anyone for this, as irresistible as it feels, because it furthers our own delusion, or blindness that there is some 'cure' for what we have become. That is all about the lie, blaming and abusing and denying that we are abusing. Psychology must be one of the greatest delusions ever invented, but I do see what you mean Jeffrey that it can be a very good tool for furthering our contemplative journey, so long as it is understood as such, by making us more self-aware of the mechanisms of the matrix; the infinite permutations of matter and our ability to imaginatively spin webs which delimit the boundaries of our world; sustaining neurosis in all it forms and appearances. Actually, religion is the biggest lie I can think of, then there is government, then there is academia, which includes Psychology. This is why those who do not buy into the collective lie are often seen as "enemies of the state."
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Post by josh bishop on Mar 7, 2012 20:45:06 GMT -5
I wanted to share this with everyone, something that sounded sort of clever and wise.
"Every good, strong, family knows how to let go of the present, and not dwell in the past. Pain is in the present, not in the past. Pain is in the body, let go through the body, not through the mind. It is a reversal of good fortune to be stuck in the mind. Forget about your past, forget about your future, live only in the present. A good, and strong, family knows that living in the present is wise, because nothing is present, but this moment, for a moment."
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Post by josh bishop on Mar 7, 2012 21:03:16 GMT -5
If taught to children from parents who were mystics, and were able to achieve 4th Jhana everyday, sustained through out everyday of their lives, then we would raise children who would understand 'mindfulness' without ever knowing what mindfulness 'was'.
I can feel all of the pain in my body, and it is physical, dull in places, sharp in others, and tingling in others, and what it is all about is allowing the body to remain always open in a perfect alignment with whatever task it is performing. Relaxing and letting go of every physical restriction impairing the optimal efficiency of the body to function at its peak level of performance. This is how I should have been 'raised', a way of 'raising' which beholds beauty in everyday, and every moment, for the splendor of its immaculate perfection. Pain becomes pleasure, but requires presence, the liquid presence of being.
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Post by jhananda on Mar 8, 2012 8:41:12 GMT -5
I wanted to share this with everyone, something that sounded sort of clever and wise. "Every good, strong, family knows how to let go of the present, and not dwell in the past. Pain is in the present, not in the past. Pain is in the body, let go through the body, not through the mind. It is a reversal of good fortune to be stuck in the mind. Forget about your past, forget about your future, live only in the present. A good, and strong, family knows that living in the present is wise, because nothing is present, but this moment, for a moment." Unfortunately most families function in the "present" under denial. The denial goes on compounding with daily interest in the form of daily abuses. If taught to children from parents who were mystics, and were able to achieve 4th Jhana everyday, sustained through out everyday of their lives, then we would raise children who would understand 'mindfulness' without ever knowing what mindfulness 'was'. This is how my children were raised. They still had their sibling rivalry and adolescent rebellion, and exploration into drugs, etc. Nonetheless, they have both grown up to be highly productive people with little emotional baggage and leading a contemplative life. I can feel all of the pain in my body, and it is physical, dull in places, sharp in others, and tingling in others, and what it is all about is allowing the body to remain always open in a perfect alignment with whatever task it is performing. Relaxing and letting go of every physical restriction impairing the optimal efficiency of the body to function at its peak level of performance. This is how I should have been 'raised', a way of 'raising' which beholds beauty in everyday, and every moment, for the splendor of its immaculate perfection. Pain becomes pleasure, but requires presence, the liquid presence of being. Yes, the emotional pain is often stored somatically. If we do not allow ourselves to feel the pain, then we cannot make the gain out of neuroses and into the righteous life. Keep up the work.
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Post by Josh on Mar 17, 2012 16:06:57 GMT -5
Jeffrey, I unexpectedly entered 3rd Jhana today, I call it, as I think others also do, the state of non-perception. A feeling of emptiness, and none reaction, a state where an observer is present, which simply sees what is before it. I often found myself looking at someone, to find that when they noticed I was looking at them, their reaction did not break my gaze in any sense of doing something inappropriate, but i guess i was indeed starring without a sense of it being appropriate or not, it simply felt good to be in a gaze of direct contact. I have read that baby's and children will often become fixed on looking at someone or something and when turned away their eyes practically bulge to maintain that almost tactile touch like sense of connection to what ever is being observed. There is a pleasure in it that doesn't want to be broken.
It seems to me that while in 3rd Jhana, I have the most frequent number of revelatory like insights that seem to arise from the deep dwelling that happens so easily. Later, i find that i remember little of what i was thinking, but remember that many profound and well thought through ideas had occurred very, pleasurably, and without any conscious effort to do so.
Regarding chronic pain, it seems that my muscles are always tight due to serotonin type imbalances in the brain, very light doeses of zoloft help decrease pain, somehow, as I have been told, through modulating the pain, even though the muscle may still be tight. But while in Jhana, I can feel the energetic body, and I always move into forms of alignment, and levels of sensitivity to muscle pain, and ways to 'correct' the way i walk etc which I simply do not experience outside of jhana. However, the pain is not going away, but I see and sense that my energetic body is messed up in some way, not in alignment with the physical body. I would guess that if my spirit was opening or awakening, that the body would relax and yield to a physical transformation which would accommodate the changes in energy in the body.
I feel as though my physical body has had elements of my past ingrained to such a degree that they somehow have become a part of my physical constitution, something that has transferred from the spiritual to physical, and wonder if my spirit is not trying to break free of the body?
Regards and hope that was not too long winded...Josh
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Post by jhananda on Mar 18, 2012 10:44:37 GMT -5
Jeffrey, I unexpectedly entered 3rd Jhana today, I call it, as I think others also do, the state of non-perception. A feeling of emptiness, and none reaction, a state where an observer is present, which simply sees what is before it. I often found myself looking at someone, to find that when they noticed I was looking at them, their reaction did not break my gaze in any sense of doing something inappropriate, but i guess i was indeed starring without a sense of it being appropriate or not, it simply felt good to be in a gaze of direct contact. I have read that baby's and children will often become fixed on looking at someone or something and when turned away their eyes practically bulge to maintain that almost tactile touch like sense of connection to what ever is being observed. There is a pleasure in it that doesn't want to be broken. Hello Josh, and thank-you for posting your experience with the 3rd jhana. My experience of the third jhana is as you described. I can have the experience while in meditation or even while walking around. I have no interpretation of the sensory domain; however, it is nonetheless there. Some Buddhist priests claim all sensory experience ceases upon entering the first jhana; however, the sutta description of the 8 stages of samadhi clearly refers to sensory phenomena. So, I conclude that most Buddhist priests most probably have never had an experience of samadhi. It seems to me that while in 3rd Jhana, I have the most frequent number of revelatory like insights that seem to arise from the deep dwelling that happens so easily. Later, i find that i remember little of what i was thinking, but remember that many profound and well thought through ideas had occurred very, pleasurably, and without any conscious effort to do so. Yes, I too find I have greater experience with intuition, insight and revelation while in the 3rd jhana and above. However, most Buddhist priests claim insight is a meditation technique of mindfulness, which further supports my premise that most Buddhist priests most probably have never had an experience of samadhi. Regarding chronic pain, it seems that my muscles are always tight due to serotonin type imbalances in the brain, very light doeses of zoloft help decrease pain, somehow, as I have been told, through modulating the pain, even though the muscle may still be tight. But while in Jhana, I can feel the energetic body, and I always move into forms of alignment, and levels of sensitivity to muscle pain, and ways to 'correct' the way i walk etc which I simply do not experience outside of jhana. However, the pain is not going away, but I see and sense that my energetic body is messed up in some way, not in alignment with the physical body. I would guess that if my spirit was opening or awakening, that the body would relax and yield to a physical transformation which would accommodate the changes in energy in the body. I feel as though my physical body has had elements of my past ingrained to such a degree that they somehow have become a part of my physical constitution, something that has transferred from the spiritual to physical, and wonder if my spirit is not trying to break free of the body? Regards and hope that was not too long winded...Josh Yes, I find I too can relieve much of my chronic joint pain when in 3rd jhana and above. And, when I am in these deeper levels of samadhi I am directed to "move energy" in different ways which helps relieve my chronic pain; however, I have also found that my chronic pain is not 100% relieved all of the time by the religious experience. And, I have found 12oz bottle of beer every 2-4hrs helps to relieve my chronic pain. So, I am not likely to resort to zoloft or any other pain reliever at this time. However, my chronic pain continues and it continues to get worse, so I can see that at some point I will be on a daily dose of one of the opiates, such as: codeine or oxycodone. At that point I am likely to retire from service.
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Post by josh bishop on Mar 18, 2012 16:25:32 GMT -5
My favorite beer is Belgian, made by the monks. But I have never been much of a drinker, and due to Gastritis my entire diet has been fairly restricted for the past three years. Anyways, my main problem, which is related to the chonic pain, is sleep. For that I take tranquillizers, and various other things in combination or rotation, but this is no way to live, the greatest anxiety I have is the fact that I can't fall asleep (at the same time every night). It always gets later and later at night until I am going to sleep in the morning and sleeping all day, at which point, I will suffer through staying up a whole day (and previous night) to try and go to bed in the evening. So that is the reason why I very reluctantly experimented with anti-depressants only in the last year. Zoloft worked to some extant, I was on the lowest possible dose, but i went impotent, a bit flat emotionally, it didn't really help with the sleep (perhaps due to the use of tranquillizers which I haven't been able to completely stop). I did find, while being a bit emotionally flat, that I was more 'present', that might be what they claim the drug helps with - 'social phobia' - I didn't feel as nervous around people...I did find it affected my memory though, so all in all I stopped it after about 2-3 months and went back to just using the old usual.
I don't know if it helps to talk about this here, as I know there is nothing you can do about that Jeffrey, I suppose though this does all come back to issues of energy however, alignment emotionally and physically, it just has been so long now that I have had sleep/anxiety type disorders, perhaps I will not stop searching for an answer, but how do we accept that this is the way things are, and continue to live in pain, while others never have to even give it a thought.
While I was in 3rd Jhana yesterday, I was sitting in a McDonalds watching (I counted) six different scenarios unfolding before me, i mean people, and the people they were talking with, totally absorbed by what I was watching, I couldn't hear what any of these people were saying, and some were walking around, waitresses, but I could have sat there all day and was sorry that I was in a bit of a hurry to leave. Anyways, what I wanted to say, was how all of these people seem so totally unaware of themselves, I'm sure they all sleep well every night, and never have to give their waking or sleeping time a single thought, it all just happens and unfolds as it once did for me before around the age of 20 I would say. I guess the thing that wakes people up most of the time are things like aging, getting sick, losing/changing a job, losing/making friends/lovers, moving, going on a trip...but never a worry about whether they will fall asleep that night or not, and whether they will stay asleep long enough that night that they are able to function the next day, I dont know...I think perhaps I am frustrated by the fact that my contemplative life is not healing my body and mind in the way that I think that it should, and then there are people who could care less about contemplation and lead perfectly normal healthy lives without having to bring their lives to a complete halt so as to minimize the amount of external stress factors, I guess I'm feeling a bit burnt out over the chronic pain and sleep problems, why do I have them, and if it is just something that has come out of balance, a chemical imbalance of some kind, do I take the drugs for that and suffer the side effects...or the other option. It seems pretty much always if I have a good day, the next day will be bad, I feel as though my efforts to heal myself are constantly sabotaged by my body, a kind of rebellion I dont know why...
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